Decaflon

I guess I'll start.

• Why is there a capital P in the middle of a one word name? I mean... seriously?

I think the main weakness is the documentation. They're starting to catch up, but for a long while there was a ton of stuff that you had to really dig in the code to find--or write your own from scratch using it's db structure.

I don't think it sucks, but if you want to do some more advanced things with it, it can be a pain.

WordPress came up last night during our Superstream and one developer said he was moving over to Habari because of how bloated WP code is and how difficult it is to work with.

WordPress sucks because if you're creating a new Page, like a "Contact Us" page, and you happen to have a textarea element in the content, once you save it and go back to that page, WP interprets the closing /textarea tag as the actual end of the MAIN textarea you use to type into, and everything below it spills out into the WP interface completely botching whatever you had saved as the content for that Page. It's been documented as a bug but was closed due to it being an "edge case" or some bullshit. Most annoying bug ever, and it's even more annoying to know that nobody cares about it. The bottom line is you just can't have any kind of form inside of a Page.

Oh and since it's Friday and I'm generous, here's another reason why WordPress sucks. When they released the version of WP that swapped out categories for the tag taxonomy stuff they COMPLETELY fucked up any sites that had WP and bbpress installed at the same time as they had conflicting function calls with all tag-related functions. The two latest versions of WP and bbpress were released and were completely incompatible with each other. This took 9rules.com down for about a day and had us (Scrivs) coding like mad to fix it. Thanks a lot WP.

If you're using WP to power a site that has anything more than a blog on it, stay the hell away because it's evil.

Wordpress sucks because that's what I call my vacuum cleaner. Wordpress.

LOL @Gnorb.

One I hear a lot--but don't know that much about--is that WordPress calls the database too much. Because a default installation doesn't cache anything(?) a reasonably high level of traffic can easily slow it too a crawl or take the site down completely.

I guess you could say I'm biased, but my beef with it is just how ugly and seemingly unorganized the code is. The directory structure bugs the hell out of me as well. It seems so arbitrary.

With my (nominal) usage of it, it seems to work as a pretty competent platform, as expected of the 700lb. gorilla of blogging engines. The new admin area is especially beautiful, albeit quite cluttered and facing the same organization issues (in my humble opinion) as everything else.

I installed it recently to test their export format (for <-> with Chyrp) and was immediately smacked with a very trivial glitch at the Config setup screen. They didn't globalize a variable in one of their functions for loading the page, which left me without a stylesheet. Not sure if they've fixed it yet, but it's a fairly obvious bug, which is what concerns me.

Alex, I'd venture to think that people who consider the new WP admin screen as "beautiful" are saying it in direct comparison to all previous versions of the WP interface which looked like the bottom of my shoe after I stepped in dog shit. The sparse and smartly-designed look of Chyrp is far superior to WP's design, and you're just one person working on the project for months, not years. Automattic and WP have absolutely no excuse for letting the codebase of WP and the interface of the admin application get covered in weeds over the years. It's embarrassing that one of the most widely-used web applications in the blog world happens to be one of the most unkempt as far as the visuals are concerned.

One I hear a lot--but don't know that much about--is that WordPress calls the database too much. Because a default installation doesn't cache anything(?) a reasonably high level of traffic can easily slow it too a crawl or take the site down completely.

David that's completely right, and that's WP's downfall. That also happens to be an area that has kept Movable Type still relevant if you're dealing with super-large blogs as MT caches everything by default and has no problem dealing with large traffic spikes. There are very good caching plugins for WordPress but they're not turned on by default which is a huge mistake. The "Digg effect" was basically coined because WP-based blogs that got on the frontpage of Digg would go down immediately. I used to run a fairly popular Movable Type-based blog that has had its fair share of Diggings and it never went down, not once, under heavy traffic. That's something that WP simply cannot claim.

Performance. Out-the-box, WordPress is a complete hog. Even with caching, page generation (when there isn't a cached version) takes about fifteen times longer and a hundred times too many database transactions than one should reasonably need to display a page.

The admin side of things isn't bad. The feature set is pretty good. The plugin scope is pretty good too, even if they do keep moving the goal-posts for developers.

I don't think WordPress is bad, but I do think it's gotten needlessly supersized ever since the earlier versions. I've never had any problems with WordPress and if I did, it could easily be solved with what I found out from the community or with other community developed plugins.

I think it works well for the basic to the average power users. Don't forget, there are plenty of us out there that don't get dugged or any traffic spikes or high traffic at all. A lot of people out there aren't interested in the programming language nor will they ever be. I know we shouldn't have to be the one that fixes the flaws that come out with a system, but at the end of the day you use what works best for you, much like an OS.

I've got no qualms with WordPress. Overall, I think it's spectacular.

It's funny that this discussion's turned up - I've been planning to launch a site soon with a couple of Novelr's community members and people've been telling me just how damned awesome Wordpress is for any thing text-related I'd like to do.

I was swayed by them ... until I read this.

Is Wordpress really that horrible for site (and not blog) creation? If it really sucks that hard, what other CMS should I use? I know Tyme's probably going to say EE, but I was thinking Symphony.

@shadowsun7
Yes, that's the big point I struggle with. Every CMS I've ever come across has its annoying problems. If it's not an ugly backend, it's ugly code, or a small (read absent) community of tinkerers, or that it hasn't been updated in years, or... you understand the point. Like Kami, I actually think WordPress is pretty great. I use it for all my stuff, and I don't see that changing soon. As they say, "better the devil you know..."

...than the devil you have to walk through hell to know.

I understand why WordPress is horrible from a programmers perspective. If you're going to build something out of it, with what it has become now, it's a horrible mess to sift through and recode from scratch.

But if you're not going to touch the code, if you aren't planning to build something huge out of it. On its own it's a pretty solid thing to have.

I haven't used WP in a few years so I couldn't add anything that would be relevant to today. Anyway, check out why Ryan Irelan of Airbag Industries says EE should be your next CMS.

Thanks for the link Alan, I'm checking it out now. Anybody else has insights into Wordpress's failings at a CMS?

Honestly, no CMS is perfect. They all have their flaws. I suggest (when people are starting a project) making a list of the features the CMS needs to have - for now and in the future - and pick the software that does the best job.

I used MovableType but it isn't developed as fast as I would like it to be. I used ExpressionEngine but due to the fluid nature of the CMS one has to be VERY sure that is the CMS that will be always used because exporting the content into another CMS can be challenging. They also do not innovate as quickly as I would like, for example tagging is not native to CMS (when I last checked).

Now I am using WordPress and I am pleased with it. They innovate and keep up with current standards. For example, tagging is native to the CMS, they made a formal way to export content, and they made the addon upgrade process much more streamlined. I haven't had any performance issues and there are traffic intensive sites using the software with much success.

I don't see myself ever using MT for anything but I can see specific projects where I might pick EE over WP. For example, a multi-authored blog. EE allows for ME to pick EXACTLY what the author can access and I can create custom levels. Perhaps one day WP will do that (it would be awesome if it did) but as of now, the levels are pre-made and it's like multiple choice picking one. With EE I can also customize the emails that are sent out (for example, comment notification emails) - which I am not sure WP does.

It depends on the project. For most people WP is just fine.

Tyme may be the only person I know who's used every major blogging engine on a site. I don't think anybody could adequately compare all the different blog platforms as well as she could.

I don't see myself ever using MT for anything but I can see specific projects where I might pick EE over WP.

The next blog that I start from scratch will be with Movable Type. I've never liked WP, mainly because the things that I need to do (directly access data without having random HTML elements thrown in, have complete access over templates, etc.) are just easier to do in MT than WP in my opinion. I don't have to mess with any kind of caching or plugins in MT as it publishes statically off the bat, and the MT admin interface has been far superior to WordPress for a few years. In fact the MT admin interface from 2004 beats the shit out of the WP admin interface in the latest release. I'm a designer so that kind of stuff matters to me.

@Mike: Based on the comments here (and on our previous conversation) I've started to try out MT. Except for the theming (particularly, the software-specific syntax), I'm rather impressed by the software. I'll be testing it out for a while, but if I end up getting very used to it I might go ahead and switch.

Cool, Gnorb, hope it works out for ya.

I will never go back to MT.

After I tried to install it the first time and got it up and running only to find a horribly complex and slow interface, I will never touch MT again.

EVER.

@Kamigoroshi: I'll agree with you there. Installation was a real pain. Wordpress is better, no questions asked. (Even bBlog wasn't that annoying, and that was almost 4 years ago!) But the management interface is... well, I can only describe it as what Wordpress wishes it could be. That's not to knock Wordpress, because I like it, but I've found MT's is much more robust, much more complete. I've been particularly impressed by the multi-blog management functionality, which acts like Wordpress.com acts, and like I wish Wordpress would.

As for the speed... about the same in both, really. Haven't yet checked how much of a hit it takes on the DB though.

I've had MT 4 (the open source one) installed a couple of months back. I played with it but I'm not particularly happy about the wait times every time I publish a post. I do suppose I can get used to it - and the templating system seems simple enough, but like Tyme said I don't see any use for it in the near future. I either blog, or I do sites. No multi user blogs for me.

Nobody here's got experience with Symphony? =(

@Gnorb: Wait till you have fun rebuilding, then rebuilding, then rebuilding and then rebuilding some more.

Let's not pretend WordPress is a full on application. If you use it for pure blogging and like your plugins it is tough to beat.

@Scrivs: Not saying WP isn't solid. It is. I've just found certain MT features to be better. But that's why I'm still testing it. I haven't really run into much of the rebuilding issue yet, so it's not something that's yet entered my consideration.

For now, though, all testing is off. I'm apparently going on a (much needed) vacation I though was canceled.

Have fun on the vacation :)

Rebuilding woes aren't that upsetting unless you have many hundreds of blog entries under your belt, then it's a pain. The pain can be lessoned by being smart about what is in an include file and what is in the template, but sitting there and waiting does take a few minutes. I always thought about it like my "blog was compiling".

@Gnorb: Well have fun on it. I think it's good to actually go out and find out just whether that software is for you or not. Back when I was deciding between WP and MT, I tried them both. I found out I liked WP and never looked back. I don't regret it and I'm better off. Maybe you'll find you'll like MT, maybe you'll find something new that you can work with entirely.

My motto with base softwares like this is and will always be: "As long as it works for you." There won't be any argument there.

What about Drupal? I have a friend who absolutely obsessed with it - swears by it for EVERYTHING. I use Wordpress for virtually all my projects, but I have to say I'm getting tired of it, and actually have been thinking about moving back to MT (except I'm to lazy to port all my entries back again and having to worry about tags, categories and all the important things getting jumbled up).

I actually ponder about what would be in my ideal CMS a few weeks ago. I think part of my problem is I don't really know what I want. I do know that I need something that could endlessly grow, expand and handle lots of traffic, content and users. For example I like MT's templating system, it's stability but hate the building times. I love WP's community, millions of plugins and easy publishing, but I hate the fact that if I hit a certain number of visits my site goes down. I've dipped my toes into EE and I liked it, but I'm not going to spend money one it unless that would be the CMS I would use for at least the next 2 years or more and handle everything I need... (sorry). And there is TextPattern. Which I used and loved. Was a hard core TP evangelist until I got tangled up in WP. Textpattern is great, but development is slow, plugins aren't as plenty and it's templating system is just a liiiiitttle bit more complex then I want.

Final words of warning to everyone: stay away from joomla.

(I don't think WordPress sucks but I want into this convo)

WordPress sucks because: As Mike noted, it automatically reformats your code in posts. I have used div tags in the past and they worked only to find later they didn't and what's more, entire sections of content had been eliminated ... as they might say "cleaned." I say do away with the corrective auto formatting. I've sort of learned, like a blind man would use his hearing more to get around, that I can rob Peter to pay Paul sometimes and tweak things within the interface to make it work for me ... but then the upgrades cp,e and it messes everything up again.

I haven't tried a whole lot of interfaces, but for my money (free LOL) WordPress does wonders.

You can check out my "default" theme tweaked to suit at my blog.

Every time I want to make a small change to something I would assume was very simple

1. No one has already made a plugin to do it
2. I have to dig through code and docs to find where it's being done in the first place
3. There's not a good way to make a plugin out of it, so I have to manage the code and check for breaks after upgrading.

You'd think that wouldn't happen so often considering how small the codebase actually is.

A bit late to join this perhaps, but

Final words of warning to everyone: stay away from Joomla.

Kudos and points for that my man. I hate Joomla with a vengeance.

As for the issue at hand, I've always liked WP (both the CMS as the .com service) and set up some sites with it that aren't blogs and, out of the box, it "worked for me" — as Kami says.

Tried Texpattern, looked at MT and heard lotsa good stuff about Drupal — it's Belgian and Dries is from my home town, so there's some pride mixed in that :)

If there's one thing I dislike about WP is that a lot of people seem to rave about it because it's WP and because Mullenweg seems like a cool guy. That reeks of ego worshipping and of "trying to be cool by liking WP because everyone says that's what you should do" more than anything else.

This discussion makes me feel like I don't push the boundaries with blogging software. Am I the only one that uses a blog to blog? WP does that pretty well and I don't see the admin interface that much since I use MarsEdit.

Any thread starting with "WordPress sucks because" is going to be negative, but at the same time I feel a lot of the above might be overly influenced by older versions of WordPress.

If you guys are interested I'd be happy to do a Q&A or something -- it could make a good article, maybe Scrivs or Mike could moderate.

As for the allegation that the code is terrible (beyond stylistic differences) - we did 35.4 million fully dynamic pageviews on Monday. (Another 17.2 million were done on WP.org blogs that use our stats plugin, but don't host.) It scales! If you need help with configuration, just ask.

Hm I thought you were too busy moonlighting as a CEO to do any type of interview, but I'm sure we can wrangle up some questions and toss them your way. Thanks for the opportunity. I think this has been a good discussion about what people dislike about WordPress and we all know nobody has created a product that everyone in the world has liked (well maybe God with that whole water thing) so it's good for the people who aren't aware of alternative blogging engines to get a taste.

What it comes down to is how you start to use the product and what you want to do with it. The people who code might have only intended to use it one way, while you start to think of other way you want to push it. Once those ideals clash you are going to find dislikes in how it works.

I think any time you use something written by someone else, and try to bend it to your whims, you're going to run into gripes about how it does things or how it was coded.

I know several folks here wrote their own, that way they know how everything works and don't have to rtfm (as much) when something breaks.

I never cease to be surprised to see Matt turn up on discussions like this. I feel I should say that the intent of the thread wasn't to discourage use of WordPress, but just to hear all it's perceived deficiencies in one place.

I'd certainly love to hear Matt (or any other WordPress developers) discuss some of the issues raised in this thread. Certainly some of the gripes here are more about personal preference, but the methodology of bug fixes, the way development choices are made, and the reason a default install lacks (meaningful) caching are all things I'd be interested to hear about.

(More personally, I'd also like to know when 2.5.2 will be released so I'll be rid of this bug.)

Like I (and others) have said in this note, WordPress--all software--has things people don't like about it. It's not meant as a slight to WordPress to note what people don't like about it. I still think it's a great piece of software that serves my needs as well as anything could.