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He bore the sin death on the cross and endured for us unto death and then resurrected from death in bodily form after 3 days of death. Having defeated even death

That's a LOT of death.

indeed

Reminds me of the Monty Python spam sketch. Death Death Death Resurrection and Death!

Anyway... I don't tend to identify myself as a Christian or as any religion. However, I try to live by the ideals set forth by the Christian faith.

Respecting those around me, being tolerant to other viewpoints, accepting people for who they are.

Basically, I embrace the love thy brother and do unto others as you'd have them do unto you parts.

Respecting those around me, being tolerant to other viewpoints, accepting people for who they are.

Basically, I embrace the love thy brother and do unto others as you'd have them do unto you parts.

It really doesn't need to be any more complicated than this. My version: Live and let live.

It really doesn't need to be any more complicated than this. My version: Live and let live.

Yes. What you said. Points for you!

@peroty: I really want to see your point of view so I need to understand your position in regards to mine. What do you think the Bible means when it states:

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death" (Proverbs 14:12)

And when you say you "try to live by the ideals set forth by the Christian faith", your idea of the Christian faith is basically Mark 12:31 which reads:

Mark 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

I agree that is an important thing and most Christian's miss that, but if you believe that what about the other piece before it that reads:

Mark 12:29-30
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Do you also believe this? If not, why would you choose one Christian principle to live by and not the others? Thanks for your time!

I believe faith is a guidebook for how to live one's life. Not a rule book. It's not an all or nothing proposition.

Well, if there is none other commandment greater than this... but the first one is to love the lord. Then which one takes precedence?

I feel I can love someone greater than myself, but also to love my neighbors as I would myself. Why can't I do both?

@peroty: If faith is a guidebook in how to live one's life, my question is which guide book do we use? There are many faith's. How do you know you have the right guide?

I think you misread, it doesn't read "none other commandment greater than this" it reads: "There is none other commandment greater than these." - meaning they are both equally important.

So, again, why would you choose one Christian principle to live by and not the others?

I don't feel there is a correct guidebook. That is a choice one must make for their own life. Different guides are right for different people.

Ah, and indeed, I misread it. Thanks. :)

The reason I'd choose to live by some parts and not others are the ones I feel are important to my life and my interactions with others. I don't feel that loving God above all is that important. I believe there is a higher power of some sort. However, I'm not sure it's this ephemeral fatherly figure.

I don't feel that talking to my invisible lord is important as treating people around me as I wish for them to treat me irregardless of faith, upbringing, skin color, sexuality, etc.

I don't really equate myself with any specific religion... I was raised in the Methodist Church but I don't consider myself one.

I see the Bible more like a book of starting points and guidelines to base your own personal direction and morals off of. Not a book that is to be taken as "do this or else" like too many of my brothers friends do.

To me, if you're true to yourself and treat others the way they treat you, you're not going to be far off base.

I'm late to the game here, but I do have some thoughts:

If it's all about "treat others like you want to be treated", then what of the man on deathrow who accepts God and begins living his life according to this "guidebook"? If He spent his entire life treating people like crud but then gets it right in the end, then shouldn't God still forgive Him?

And another thing: I know it might sound cliche, but what about "Paschal's Wager"? Basically, if Brandon or I are wrong, then we've got nothing to fear. But if you are wrong...

Would love to hear your comments.

And I know this is deviating from the original post, My apologies, Brandon.

I'm a Christian who grew up in a devout Christian environment (read: under an oppressive set of parents) and despite everything negative resulting from that that I could have aligned with all of Christianity, I didn't.

I will be the first to admit that being Christian means different things to different people. And so, to me personally--being Christian means yes, loving the Lord with all your heart and all your strength and above all things. But in doing that, I believe that loving other people more than yourself is the greatest commandment. It takes precedence over all the other traditions. I think that is the truest commandment that directly relates to the heart of God. I do not believe that the other commandments are on par with this one. There are many "rules" in the Bible that are to help us to know what is being obedient to Him, but if we lose sight of this commandment then we are far from the heart of god.

Isaiah 58:

3 'Why have we fasted,' they say,
'and you have not seen it?
Why have we humbled ourselves,
and you have not noticed?'
"Yet on the day of your fasting, you do as you please
and exploit all your workers.

4 Your fasting ends in quarreling and strife,
and in striking each other with wicked fists.
You cannot fast as you do today
and expect your voice to be heard on high.

5 Is this the kind of fast I have chosen,
only a day for a man to humble himself?
Is it only for bowing one's head like a reed
and for lying on sackcloth and ashes?
Is that what you call a fast,
a day acceptable to the LORD ?

6 "Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
to loose the chains of injustice
and untie the cords of the yoke,
to set the oppressed free
and break every yoke?

7 Is it not to share your food with the hungry
and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—
when you see the naked, to clothe him,
and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?

8 Then your light will break forth like the dawn,
and your healing will quickly appear;
then your righteousness [a] will go before you,
and the glory of the LORD will be your rear guard.

9 Then you will call, and the LORD will answer;
you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I.
"If you do away with the yoke of oppression,
with the pointing finger and malicious talk,

10 and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry
and satisfy the needs of the oppressed,
then your light will rise in the darkness,
and your night will become like the noonday.

11 The LORD will guide you always;
he will satisfy your needs in a sun-scorched land
and will strengthen your frame.
You will be like a well-watered garden,
like a spring whose waters never fail.

Just my two cents. I happen to go to a church pastored by a guy whom others in the Christian community have called a heretic. We tend to get away from the shoulds and don'ts that have been aligned with the cultural Christian faith and focus more on getting closer to the heart, the Spirit. If we go more on finding out the Who and changing from the inside out, the What comes naturally after that.

@Peroty:
Ok, so let me try and state how I understand what you are saying.

You believe:

Mark 12:31"love thy neighbour as thyself" is an important principle to live by and practice during interactions with others

You don't believe:

The source of the commandment and the fact that it has another equally important commandment which is to "love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength"

So...
If the Bible, from which you gain the one life principle of loving thy neighbour as thyself, also says the other is equally important and like the first one. Aren't you also denying the one which you claim to live by, by denying its counterpart? So how can you do the second one without doing the first one? Are you kidding yourself into believing you love your neighbor without wholly believing what you say you believe?

1 John 4:7 states:

Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

This passage says that 'love is of God'; meaning that love comes from knowing God, and you can't really love without knowing God. This goes back to the two commandments which Jesus stated. You can't love your neighbor without loving God because the love to love your neighbor comes from God Himself, for He is love.

1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Again, thanks for the discussion its good for me to understand where others are coming from in their faith.

No, I am not denying everything by denying one part of it. As I've said. I don't see the Bible as an all-or-nothing book. It's a big book with lots of parts and ideas contained within. You're saying that I can't believe a single part of it without believing all of it.

I don't know God. We've never met, or had tea, or really talked more than a time or two. But I still feel love. For my family. For my friends. For my girlfriend.

I don't take religion that seriously. It's a backdrop to my life. Not something I think about very often.

i grew up in a family with many christian denominations and judaism so i have a broad view of religion because of my surroundings. however,
what makes me a christian?.... my faith and belief in jesus christ.

@osugodfan: I understand, and good insight, though the topic is just to understand how others who profess to be Christian define that.

@peroty: Thanks for the good conversation, you're making me think! I believe you can believe parts of the Bible if you want, I just wanted you to think about that if one principle is good, wouldn't it also be safe to say the others are as well? I also don't agree with you when you say " religion isn't important to you", you're posting in a religious category ;). AND then again, I'm not a religious person either, I tend to think Christianity as something more than what man has made it, more about relationship with God and man, and man to mankind, being a disciple of Christ.

@RightOn: Well this topic has kinda been shifted from my original question but its still a good conversation for me. Let me ask, Have you ever told a lie? If you have, then how can you trust yourself to be truthful to yourself? Have you ever had something stolen? If you in turn steal from the thief that stole from you, does that make anything better? You see how the cycle develops right? Before long in this thinking, someone will die and the other will be imprisoned.

Jesus taught do to others as we would want to others to do to us --- regardless of how they are mis-treating you. He said:

Matthew 5:39
38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

What you're saying 'sounds' good, but there is no foundation of truth to it. I'm sure you can agree: for truth to exist there has to be a foundational definition for truth in order to define truth. What makes something true? Does false make something true? If I can speak a lie and I can speak truth, how do I know which I'm speaking? Where does knowing the truth come from? It's obviously not in or of ourselves because we all lie and we have no way of separating true from false. This makes me believe that truth must come from without and not within. It must be pure truth with no false. As a starting point, John 14:6:

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So I'm saying you're on to something, but truth can't be defined by something that is mixed with true and false as you suggest. It has to be defined by something that is pure truth, to me that is Jesus. That is why I believe God made the commandment Thou shalt not lie. So we could recognize that I can't possibly not lie or always speak the truth without some sort of external intervention from God.

@estarla:
I'm not sure where you go to church, but it doesn't matter. What matters most is your relationship with God. Legalism and the law, those things are merely to show our legalistic minds how flawed we are and how much we need Him. I know there are countless lives that have not seen a 'true' disciple of Christ. They do exist though! We humans tend to make messes of everything and leave a path of destruction in others' lives. Thanks for sharing!

@xirclebox:
Awesome! Thank you!

If you have, then how can you trust yourself to be truthful to yourself?

Easy... I do.

Have you lied?

Have you ever had something stolen?

Yes, and my simple answer would be that if I found the guy who violated my personal space... I would violate his. He erased a good portion of my recorded history of my youngest child. Had I been able to find him, I'd show him how I 'respect' those who trespass against me.

I understand the "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth and you end up with a world filled with blind toothless people" junk but that's how I roll. Violate me, I will return the favor.

I don't spend my time boiling my brains over life philosophy... sorry.

osugodfan: Paschal's Wager is a very bad way to justify being religious, and it will in most cases only reduce people's respect for your beliefs. It is not a good basis of faith that "well if I'm wrong it doesn't matter". Months back I had a series of great discussions with 'Atheist Perspective' on here in various religious threads and he/they were great to talk to about it. The best argument I can think of right now is belief that unicorns live in North America, if you're wrong it doesn't really matter but that's certainly no basis for believing that they do live in North America. (Terrible example, I'm sorry!)

BrandonRichards said:

1 John 4:7 states:

Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

This passage says that 'love is of God'; meaning that love comes from knowing God, and you can't really love without knowing God. This goes back to the two commandments which Jesus stated. You can't love your neighbor without loving God because the love to love your neighbor comes from God Himself, for He is love.

Keep in mind that you are interpolating passages, you take the quote "love is of god" but right afterward it says "every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God." Certainly you can take this in the way you've interpreted it, but also it can easily be read to mean that anyone who loves is experiencing and knowing god. If you teach and preach Christianity as God is Love, and that when someone loves someone else that love COMES from god then you get a good sense of what it's all about.

It's very inhibiting to me if you say "unless you're christian you don't know love."

Definition of Christian:

1. "Christ One"; one who is of Christ and like Christ

2. "Little Christ"; an imitator of Christ who is in submission to the "Big Christ"

3. One who follows the example, works, and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth and affirms him as the Christ.

I would hope that others who see me and meet me would come to the conclusion that I fit all of these terms and descriptors, but I dare not cling to them.

Could you imagine me going up to you and saying "Hi. I'm just like Jesus Christ."

Also, you cannot become like this unless you are transformed by God by allowing what He's done through Christ to become true within yourself.

Finally, when you are like Christ, it means that you love like Christ; not that you are authoritarian. Quite the contrary; it means that you'll become more humble and servant-like.

@bartoneus: I understand what you are saying, but what I was pointing out is that if a person doesn't know God, then the person doesn't know love even when they think they do.

@Mjoshua: agreed! Thank you!

I really resonate with Mjoshua's 3rd point, in his last comment:

"3. One who follows the example, works, and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth and affirms him as the Christ."

That's what makes me a Christian. Also, that affirmation of Jesus as the Christ entails a great deal that makes Christianity unique.

BrandonRichards: it is not to you, or anyone on this earth, to say who does or does not know love. If you start telling people who are not Christian that their love is fake you will not further your causes in ANY way without great difficulty.

I suggest being inclusive rather than being exclusive.

Seanthony: I also really like Mjoshua's third definition, though especially because the second doesn't sit well with me at all.

Bartoneus, THAT is precisely why I left the church 12 years ago.

Rather than being inclusive, the people I was around acted as if questions and alternative reasoning outside of what was in "the book" was flat out disrespectful and wrong.

Correct me if I'm wrong but does "the book" tell us not to judge others?

Who am I to say my way is THE way... live your life as you see fit but I draw the line at statements like "that if a person doesn't know God, then the person doesn't know love even when they think they do."

What makes you more "right" than me... and who are you to declare my love any less valid than yours simply because your faith is "stronger" than mine....

if I found the guy who violated my personal space... I would violate his.... Violate me, I will return the favor.

I hope that you learn to forgive instead of looking for vengeance.

Sorry I don't buy into the forgiveness angle.

If someone kills my child, forgiving them doesn't bring back my child. Neither does seriously injuring the son of a bitch but it makes me feel good knowing they don't get off scott free and have to recover from their actions.

Rather than being inclusive, the people I was around acted as if questions and alternative reasoning outside of what was in "the book" was flat out disrespectful and wrong.

Correct me if I'm wrong but does "the book" tell us not to judge others?

Indeed, RightOn. There are so many divisions within the community because The Church has lost focus. Instead of being a movement mobilizing to make an impact in the world around us, Christians (in general) have become complacent and created drama amongst us. Besides, what is the use of religion if it doesn't change us? It's merely an institution. A club. And thus that is the meat of the talk about spirituality over religiosity.

Another reason I left my church was that it became more about the money than the message. There were weekly budget meetings where people would throw chairs, and the sermons on Sunday ALWAYS ended with "please donate X amount of money to this, so we can buy a new speaker system".

It became, like you said... more of a club than anything else so I opted out.

Going to church doesn't make you any more a Christian than going to the garage makes you a car. - Laurence J. Peter

I totally hear you. Baffling that they would out-and-out pressure people to give in the name of a speaker system.

@Bartoneus: If you re-read the discussion I was having with Peroty you will see that I'm basing my conversation in regards to love with the principle of love he says he lives by from the Bible which also say another principle is equally important and for the reason of that Love, pure love, the agape kind of love (there are three kinds of love) only comes from God. And the love the Bible is speaking of there is the God kind of love. I didn't say, I'm merely repeating it with Love because I do care and want people to know- especially when they say they don't know God, which he did.

@RightOn: I'm sorry you've experienced those things. Are you saying someone killed your child? I don't think questions outside the book are disrespectful and wrong... good grief no, ask away I'm not offended in anyway or judgemental I want to learn. I know some religious people do though, and I'm sorry.

As far as judging there are different kinds of judgement. I think what you are referring to doesn't say 'Don't judge', in fact I hear this a lot and if you look up the reference its found here and Jesus is talking:

Luke 6:34-49
He is saying not to make judgements without first judging yourself or you're a hypocrite. I have no right judging a matter in which I too am guilty. This is why living the life is important as to professing it only. If I don't judge myself according to scripture and live the life, then I'm nothing but a hypocrite.

In 1 Corinthians 6:2, Paul begins telling us that we will indeed be judges and should judge matters.

Let me ask you, do you not judge your child in what they are doing as right or wrong according to your beliefs?

As an example, if you're child is walking out to the street curb and into the street are they right or wrong? Do you just let them go?

Of course not, we all make judgments everyday which brings me back to a point I made earlier.

If we can't trust ourselves to tell the truth always, how can we trust ourselves to make good judgements? The answer is, we can't. We NEED an answer outside of us, which is God, the Holy Spirit, His word, Jesus.

And guess what, when we receive Jesus as Lord, He as Lord puts His spirit inside of us to lead us, guide us, perfect us, but that only happens when we submit to His principles and not our own. You know this because you call out to your child heading to the street and discipline them to not do it again ( atleast I hope you do).
I hope you understand what I'm saying now.

As far as the money thing is concerned... I've seen it one too many times as well. We're instructed to give freely without pressure in the New Testament. The flip side is, only about 6% of a congregation give anything and most of that is just a tip. People want good music, want good childcare and classes, but they don't want to give or tithe according to scripture. I'd hate to be a pastor who had to stand from the pulpit of the church and beg for money to cover a sound system. He's there to preach, not raise money.

Brandon, while I agree with the majority of what you've said, something about your statement in tithing doesn't sit right with me. Perhaps I took it the wrong way, but saying "he's there to preach, not raise money" seems a bit misleading. True, a pastor's job is to preach the Word of God and share the good news. One of the messages a (good) pastor should preach is the promise that God will bless the Christian who pays his tithes (Malachi 3.10) that He loves a cheerful giver and that a person will get back what they sow. (2 Corinth 9.6-7)

Since I know you personally, I'm sure you didn't mean to come across as against tithing, but I'm afraid your post may have given others that idea. I just wanted to clear it up for their sake.

I thought I might comment on RightOn's response that as a matter of fact, the Christians don't determine that their way is THE way. Christ does. (John 14.6)

Sorry, I buy into tithing as a measure of how "good" a Christian you are as much as I buy those who claim I need to pay my taxes and shut up.

No, no one killed my child, I was making an example.

Another thing...

You cannot accurately define Christian unless you know Christ. If you do not know him (namely from the accounts of the witnesses Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John), you will have a distorted view of him. He will look like a religious zealot or a tyrant to you; much like the people Jesus himself opposed.

Central to the identity of Christ is forgiveness.

A true Christian is made evident not necessarily by their good works, but by how well they forgive others because they, themselves, were forgiven by God through Christ.

@osugodfan: I wasn't referencing the act of giving, but the issue of the heart of giving. Most people only care enough about God to 'tip' Him, when He said not just 10% but the first fruits of everything is His. Why is it His? Because He is the source of all things, He gives us everything we have. The 10% is acknowledges this and God in turn blesses those who put Him first and acknowledge Him in this way. As well as to provide for the local church that you attend , so there can be meat in the store house. You should never give by being compelled or our of fraudulent behavior but there is nothing wrong with asking when its obvious people are coming but not obeying God's word.

@RightOn: Ok I'm glad no one killed your child, that's a relief.

@Mjoshua: You hit it in the head, thank you. I totally agree and was the whole point to my question in the first place. This is the difference between religious Christianity(acts, theology of man) and being a Christian.
Living the life, baring the fruit, manifesting grace through how we live our lives according to His principles and His Spirit through forgiveness. Exemplifying Christ through the way we live our lives, not just in public, but in private as well.

Reading through this thread, I feel like Brandon is wanting to debate people's faith rather than listen to their testimony.

To answer the original question: I do consider myself of Christian faith, but I wouldn't consider myself a religious Christian. I am more along the lines of a spiritual Christian.

In the end, my faith is about my personal relationship with God. I have my quiet time, I do my own studying and introspection. As I've focused on being the man I believe God wants me to be, my life has been blessed time and time again.

If the average Christian in America looked and my life and were asked if I'm walking the path, they'd probably say absolutely not. But that's the beautiful thing about faith: my relationship with God doesn't depend on anyone else but me and the big guy. It doesn't require recognition from outside sources.

I was born into and raised a Christian. I did believe. Until I started actually studying the Bible and realizing how many things I didn't agree with and don't believe in.

I am agnostic.

And being true to that, rather than trying to conform to what my family has always wanted for me, has been good. The truth set me free. It just happens to be that it is not the Christian "truth."

Reading through this thread, I feel like Brandon is wanting to debate people's faith rather than listen to their testimony.

I saw it the moment he posted the topic. I thought I would humor him and see where it took us. :) I enjoy civil discussion about religion. However, it was clear from the original topic and first response he was one of "those" Christians who drove me from the church and keep me away.

@Ryanarrowsmith: I don't think I wanted to debate, but rather understand differing points of view from those who profess to be a Christian.

There have only been a few people who have even answered the question. My question was 'What makes you a Christian?' and the reason I asked it was because I've read several threads ( like this one: http://9rules.com/religion/notes/8174/) which lead me to believe that the term Christian is being used in a way in which I'm unfamiliar. I stated what I believe it to mean. And I get answers from people who state they don't believe in God and have no relationship with Him. Why are they answering the question? I'm not debating their Christianity, I'm debating their unbelief. Those who have stated they are believers, and have a relationship with God, such as yourself ;) I've not debated. And I do appreciate your words, thank you!

@peroty: I appreciate you sharing a view that appears to be very common amongst people I've met. I do hope you will consider what I've written in an honest way and that perhaps that if the one principle you live by is good that the other about loving God is good also. The church isn't God and I'm sorry you were driven away. I'd be interested in understanding why you were driven away if you want you can message that to me.

I don't think I wanted to debate

Hahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaa

Sorry, that was true comedy, just had to have a laugh. Anyone else? He's debating that he didn't start the thread to just to debate. :D

@BrandonRichards:

If you re-read the discussion I was having with Peroty you will see that I'm basing my conversation in regards to love with the principle of love he says he lives by from the Bible which also say another principle is equally important and for the reason of that Love, pure love, the agape kind of love (there are three kinds of love) only comes from God.

It really doesn't matter -what- kind of love you're talking about, if you want to appeal to people and relate to them and help them understand your faith, one big mistake to make is to tell them the love they feel isn't really love. Just think, over and over:

Inclusive, rather then Exclusive.

If you don't buy it, just read through the several people here who've said that's why they were driven from religion. Trust me, I started there and went through it in reverse.

@Bartoneus:
Aside from the fact that my question was directed to people who call themselves Christian. Aside from the fact that you've done nothing but scoff and criticize.

Let me try and understand you, after all this question was directed to you. You think I should just let anyone who believes:

• that because they try and live right
• do the right thing
• be true to themselves
• do good works

That they are 'Christians' and they will have eternal life and go to Heaven?

You're kidding me right? That's the most absurd thing I've ever read. Is that being 'Inclusive'? Inclusive to what?

What I've said might offend ideaologies that people have which aren't based upon pure sound Biblical truth or relationship with Him. I'm ok with that. Especially since I never said what you said I said, It was a straight quote from the scripture. God said it. People aren't offended at me, they are offended at the truth in which I've only repeated because I care about the person I've repeated it to. I didn't go to their churches or religious meetings and push them out. Most likely it wasn't a good church, and I refuse to accept your blame for it.

Your slogan: Inclusive, rather than Exclusive is in and of itself excluding people from knowing the truth, knowing that their lives can be more than it is, knowing something beyond religion and what man has tried to make the Church, and excluding people from Heaven but including them in Hell. I hope that works out for you.

@brandonrichards: I highly recommend that you read a book my pastor wrote, An Unstoppable Force.

A quote from it: "It is more important to change what people care about than to change what they believe! You can believe without caring, but you can't care without believing."

You cannot talk to non-Christians and try to change what they believe if they do not even care about it.

I don't believe at all that Bartoneus said that people who care about others are Christians and will have eternal life. Seriously, I can see you are clearly zealous about your faith and that you want to tell others about it and make them believe it, too. However, this discussion is taking place on totally separate planes. Love for others also includes respect for their intelligence, for their feeling. Truth is still truth, no matter where it is found.

Jesus didn't spend his time trying to convince people of their sin, did he?

BrandonRichards: I am sorry that I seem to have unintentionally pushed your wrong buttons. When you post a question on here about what makes people christian, and you continuously use phrases like "supposed christians" and talk about people who "claim to be christian" I can tell that you have HUGE problems with people calling themselves christians when they really aren't.

The problem a lot of people have with that is you are instantly, presumptively, and harshly bringing their faith under scrutiny without knowing anything about them.

Surely if I defined the word 'Christian' differently then you would not count as one either, BUT I don't immediately jump at you saying you may/may not be one. That's what I'm talking about when I say "Inclusive rather than Exclusive." If you start off telling someone the love they feel is not true, or fake, or incorrect, how likely do you think they are to listen to you or respect your opinion? However, in contrast if you say that God is Love, and that through God they experience love for all beings and it will help them to truly love their neighbor, there is no harm when they do come to God if they experience a self-realization that what they felt before was perhaps a PART or only a little of the love they now know.

Aside from the fact that you've done nothing but scoff and criticize.

You're kidding me right? That's the most absurd thing I've ever read. Is that being 'Inclusive'? Inclusive to what?

Hmmmmm

I was driven away from church by heavy-handed fire-and-brimstone my-way-or-you-go-to-tell teachings.

I wanted religion to be a part of my life. Something I can incorporate into how I live and to help guide my thinking and ideas. However, all I found were people wanting to tell me how I was living my life wrong.

Granted, I grew up in a small town (2,000 people allegedly) though I think they were counting the cows in that number, so perhaps my experiences are not typical. I also grew up in the south so that can say a lot as well however, I'll leave it alone.

I also saw friends around me using religion as a crutch. They were waiting for god to do this or that for them. You can't wait around for god to fix your life. You have to make your own path and you can consult god for advice. He's your Sherpa guide on the mountain trail of life. :)

@estarla:

You cannot talk to non-Christians and try to change what they believe if they do not even care about it.

Clearly if they didn't believe, then they shouldn't have responded to the question. As such as they did, tells me they do care. I don't have the ability to change anyone nor am I trying to. I just wanted answers to my question from 'Christians'.

Hey- try going to a country club without a membership and see what happens. Try telling them you believe you are a member because you dress nice, have a nice car, and play golf all the time. They will tell you the truth and you won't have any question about your membership from that point on.

Fortunately, its easier to get into Heaven than a country club, you just have to know God.

It is more important to change what people care about than to change what they believe! You can believe without caring, but you can't care without believing.

O_o doesn't that contradict itself? Of course I don't know your statements' context, but John 3 says believing is pretty darn important.

@Bartoneus:

The problem a lot of people have with that is you are instantly, presumptively, and harshly bringing their faith under scrutiny without knowing anything about them.

You mean the problem you have, unless you have a discussion about me somewhere else that I'm unaware of with other people involved?

I think you have taken my words directed to Peroty and misconstrued and mis-interpreted the whole message and meaning and tried to apply them to everyone and all responders. Please re-read it and if you have further issues, I'd be glad to chat about it on gtalk (mircury-at-gmail) or in PM.

Allow me to summarize it for you:

Brandon: What makes you a Christian?

Peroty: I try to live by the ideals set forth by the Christian faith. Basically, I embrace the love thy brother and do unto others as you'd have them do unto you parts

Brandon: why would you choose one Christian principle to live by and not the others?

Peroty: The reason I'd choose to live by some parts and not others are the ones I feel are important to my life and my interactions with others. I don't feel that loving God above all is that important.

Brandon: So...
If the Bible, from which you gain the one life principle of loving thy neighbour as thyself, also says the other is equally important and like the first one. Aren't you also denying the one which you claim to live by, by denying its counterpart? So how can you do the second one without doing the first one? Are you kidding yourself into believing you love your neighbor without wholly believing what you say you believe?

1 John 4:7 states:

Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

This passage says that 'love is of God'; meaning that love comes from knowing God, and you can't really love without knowing God. This goes back to the two commandments which Jesus stated. You can't love your neighbor without loving God because the love to love your neighbor comes from God Himself, for He is love.

1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Please re-read the Peroty and @Peroty conversation.

@Peroty: I agree with a lot of what you just posted especially the part about where people use it as a crutch and wait on God to fix it. Jesus isn't our grandma.

Clearly if they didn't believe, then they shouldn't have responded to the question. As such as they did, tells me they do care. I don't have the ability to change anyone nor am I trying to. I just wanted answers to my question from 'Christians'.

Or they were looking to explore different ideas on Christianity. You asked people to "explain or define what makes you Christian." There is not just one.

@Bartoneus:

The problem a lot of people have with that is you are instantly, presumptively, and harshly bringing their faith under scrutiny without knowing anything about them.

You mean the problem you have, unless you have a discussion about me somewhere else that I'm unaware of with other people involved?

He makes a valid point, as I said, from word one you were here with an agenda and have done nothing but condemn my views with scripture. I know you think you're right, and honestly, I'm happy for you. You have your views and I respect them. :) However, I lose respect for your lack of respecting mine.

So, I have to ask, what was your intention of starting this note? What did you hope to accomplish with such inflammatory wording?

Just reading through some of the notes on 9r and I've seen several discussions regarding Christianity. I'm curious, those of you who profess to be 'Christian', if you could explain or define what makes you Christian?

You asked for an explanation or definition from us "Christians" and that's what you've gotten. Not what you were expecting?

@Peroty: You said yourself you weren't a Christian.

Anyway... I don't tend to identify myself as a Christian or as any religion. However, I try to live by the ideals set forth by the Christian faith.

So, I have to ask, what was your intention of starting this note? What did you hope to accomplish with such inflammatory wording?

You asked for an explanation or definition from us "Christians" and that's what you've gotten. Not what you were expecting?

This makes me believe that you didn't really read the entire thread. I stated previously,

There have only been a few people who have even answered the question. My question was 'What makes you a Christian?' and the reason I asked it was because I've read several threads ( like this one: http://9rules.com/religion/notes/8174/) which lead me to believe that the term Christian is being used in a way in which I'm unfamiliar. I stated what I believe it to mean. And I get answers from people who state they don't believe in God and have no relationship with Him. Why are they answering the question? I'm not debating their Christianity, I'm debating their unbelief. Those who have stated they are believers, and have a relationship with God, I've not debated.

The responses from the people who said they were Christians are exactly what I was looking for.

I think this question\thread has been answered. Look for my next question to come soon. Thank you all for participating, I do appreciate it.

BrandonRichards: All I have to ask you in return is a simple question -

Would you rather scare people away from Christianity, or bring them towards it?

Right now, I guarantee you, you're doing more of the scaring and less of the bringing towards. Considering the bible says MANY times over to spread the word of god and bring people to Christ, maybe you should consider changing the way you go about things and express yourself to others.

Seeing as you've deemed the thread over, I'm quite curious what answers you came to through it that you didn't already know. Were you really uncertain to begin with how "true Christians" define themselves? Most of the discussion wasn't even with a person who considers himself Christian, and you definitely didn't change his mind any. What did this thread accomplish other then letting you quote scripture and contend other's beliefs even if they are very similar to your own?

Since you seem so focused on talking at me, let me leave my final thoughts as well.

Bartoneous and estarla would stand a far better chance of getting me into a church than you would and would make strides to mix faith and life. Instead of being condescendingly preached at.

I follow the teachings and ideals behind the religion and don't get caught up in the verbiage. You have to remember, those words you're quoting have been translated dozens of times by monks and nobles though hundreds and hundreds of years of history and thought.

The most enlightening religious experience I ever had was sitting with my best friend who was studying in seminary at the time. He had before him English, Greek, and Latin translations of the Bible. And while the words told mainly the same tales. The word were very different and if you had not multiple sources to compare, could interpret the stories to mean different things.

You must remember, while the Bible is the word of God, it has been filtered through hundreds of hands of men and monks no more or less fallible than our own hands.