Chawlk

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But, and let me play devil's advocate here, isn't that the point of faith: belief in the spiritual doctrines of a religion based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof. If someone had to provide reasoned argument and evidence, surely that would mean you were no longer required to have faith?

Religion is a virus.
Wear your tinfoil hat at all times or you may catch it.

People do this all the time. For example, a person finds out their spouse is cheating. A large percentage refuse to believe it, will cuss out the person that told them, and will live a lie because they have "faith" in their marriage and their spouse.

Or the person that habitually lies. The person lying has "faith" they can get away with it and keeps on doing it. The people in his or her life go through hell having "faith" the person will stop...even when they don't.

Or the person with a drug/alcohol problem or someone that can't spend their money wisely. They "believe" and have "faith" that they are just fine and they don't have a problem. If they realized they had a problem they would stop the behavior.

Those are all examples of ignoring the facts that are very clear and undeniable and holding on to a belief because they don't want to believe they are wrong. That they invested their time, energies and "faith" in something or someone that wasn't deserving at the time...including themselves. When people believe in something or someone that much...and they are wrong...it hurts....a lot.

With religion, if there is a higher being there is only one and everyone (who believes in that) thinks theirs is right. If they are wrong, that's a tough blow - some people have been abiding by the rules of their perceived higher being all their lives - they know of nothing else.

How do I respond in those instances? I realize the door is shut and I change the subject. I could talk until I turned purple and it wouldn't make a difference. A person has to be willing to make a change to hear there is a possibility one needs to be made and usually that is because something struck them personally and caused them to question things.

@Cas: I suppose that *is* the point. I just don't like the idea of shutting down my brain because I have faith in something. I think, for example, that the Buddhist world view is a good one - for the time being. My thoughts on that aren't set in stone, though. If something better comes along, or if someone hands me a valid article tomorrow, outlining why the Buddhist world view makes no sense, I'm going to listen, read, learn, and then re-evaluate my stance.

I'm not going to put my hands over my ears and go "la la la, I can't heeaaarrrrrr you."

@Rockstararchitect: Heh. :P

@Tyme:

How do I respond in those instances? I realize the door is shut and I change the subject. I could talk until I turned purple and it wouldn't make a difference. A person has to be willing to make a change to hear there is a possibility one needs to be made and usually that is because something struck them personally and caused them to question things.

I think you have the right idea there, and I'm going to go with it. I've actually attempted discussions about Christianity and religion in general with my mom many times in the past. They've all ended up like today's: they went nowhere. I guess I should just give it up.

My parent's are Christian, Roman Catholic to be exact. I discuss religion with them. I made it a point to do so when I decided I was no longer Christian and would not be confirmed in the Catholic Church - at age fourteen.

My large extended family tends to like to discuss things like religion although there are a few unreasonable folks in the bunch I don't find them to be prevalent.

These were people who did not allow me to go to confession before first communion as they felt it was ridiculous to have a second grader confessing and at that time it wasn't required - I believe it is now required again prior to first communion but I'm not sure.

My large extended family tends to like to discuss things like religion although there are a few unreasonable folks in the bunch I don't find them to be prevalent.

I do think it hard to discuss religion with some people but as my parents can articulate fairly well why they are what they are it doesn't seem to bother them. I think it is much more difficult to discuss Christianity with people who really have no idea why they believe what they believe.

If you think about it, can you really recall any instance in which a person, as a result of one conversation, has changed political parties, views on a single political issue (abortion, gay rights), or religious affiliations? On the other hand, I can understand being frustrated at a conversation in which reason isn't the driving force behind it.

And to echo what Cas said, it's not as if you can use facts and evidence to corroborate or disprove an entire view on religion. That's what faith is. It's faith because it's belief in something supernatural which is something you can't see--you can't reason that with fact. You can only know your own personal journey and experience (or lack thereof) with whatever you have personally come into contact in the course of you rlife.

If you think about it, can you really recall any instance in which a person, as a result of one conversation, has changed political parties, views on a single political issue (abortion, gay rights), or religious affiliations?

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

Sometimes, however, it's fun to argue, even when they're giving you what you consider to be ludicrous arguments.

Example: someone was trying to convince me this weekend that because matter exists then there must be a creator. And if I didn't believe this simple, simple fact then I'm simply complicating the issue. Of course, his conclusion was that this proved the existence of a god, since how could you have a creation without the creator? (Asking him "Where did the creator come from?" didn't help any, as the answer basically boiled down to "always been". Of course, the argument that maybe matter has "always been" was "complicating the issue.") I just like the argument, although it is frustrating when words like "I don't really bother with definitions because it's so simple" start being flung about.

If a person doesn't truly want to hear what is being said, and listens half-heartedly, or not at all (tuning you out) there isn't much you can say or do. The best thing might be for you to just accept the fact that this is the way your mom is, and that it's how she thinks.

I understand that you would love to have a discussion with her, don't get me wrong, but it might be for the best to just breathe, and let it go.

I'd say it's definitely worth discussing Christianity with Christians. In fact, it doesn't make much sense to discuss it with anyone BUT christians (current and/or former) if you really want to learn (the good and the bad) about it.

What I would say is that it's not worth trying to discuss ANYTHING with someone who's not willing to listen to it. I'm Christian and I spent all of my time on 9rules last week discussing with Atheist Perspective about atheism and theism and christianity. There are so many centuries of thinking and debate and most of all baggage built up around religion that it has become a very hard thing to discuss for a lot of people. If you think about it, pretty much anyone that's religious doesn't really go around saying, "I'd really love to have my faith and beliefs questioned today!" It's a painful, insightful, and VERY long process of discovery and a lot of people go through their lives avoiding situations like that.

As long as people are generally willing to have an intelligent conversation with me, I love it no matter what. Respect helps in a situation like that, and most people don't realise that each person believes what they believe because they assume that they are right. When you realise that, you should begin to see that an argument where both sides will fight to the death about how right they are will get you nowhere but dead. It is because of this that I go into discussion not concerned with who is right, but focused on finding out what the other person believes, what I believe, and what is similar/different/conflicting about those beliefs.

The other huge obstacle is the fact that most Christians want to spread their faith, and many take it to the opressive and offensive level (even to me). This leads to everyone assuming that when in a discussion about religion with a Christian they are going to try their best to convert you. This isn't true for ALL Christians, but certainly a large number and that leads to conflict in discussions.

Oh and to address something directly to Josh about the original post:

I mentioned that Jesus fits very well into the "hero" archetype that Joseph Campbell pointed out, which can be seen through countless mythologies and religions. In many cases, the "heroes" of myths and religions share a very high number of similarities. In fact, often, you could swap out their names and not see much of a difference in the tale.

I assume what you were implying to your mother was the idea that Jesus' story very closely matches stories found before his time, and that this invalidates the bible? I'd be very interested to hear where a discussion about this goes and how both sides rationalize things.

@Bartoneus:

I assume what you were implying to your mother was the idea that Jesus' story very closely matches stories found before his time, and that this invalidates the bible? I'd be very interested to hear where a discussion about this goes and how both sides rationalize things.

I don't think it necessarily invalidates the bible, but rather, knocks the bible off of the pedestal it has been placed on, on to the same level as a huge number of other religions / mythologies / stories. While I could be wrong, I often get the impression that Christians think the story of their savior is unique, when in fact, it's anything but - assuming one is willing to look at the history of it all, without disregarding the facts you see. I think that Christians also have faith in their religion because they think the "history" they know about Jesus, etc. is all true, for sure. Again, not really the case.

Furthermore, the numerous links between pre-Christian "mythical figures" and Jesus points to, at least in my opinion, another issue: it's highly likely that Jesus is a myth. At least to me, it looks like Jesus was just a progression of the mythological hero figure, not a unique being in and of himself. That isn't meant in any negative way, but rather just a statement.

If you accept that the facts lend themselves towards a statement of "Jesus was a mythological figure", you then run into the issue of... well, if he didn't really exist, what makes Christianity better, superior, or, dare I say it, any more realistic than the Greek gods, or Celtic gods, or (X) gods?

Hopefully that sheds some light on how I see things. :)

you know I've never actually flogged a horse, dead or living, but suffice to say that challenging one perceived truth with another is a process that may invite discussion but perhaps yields little new in the way of knowledge. Rather than a process of discerning binaries such as weak/strong; good/bad; moral/immoral/ true/false, if one was to state the problem and work backwards, stripping off the layers of misconception, contention and confusion that lead to the problem in the first place, challenging the base of power at the root, in other words 'deconstructing' the problem, the process of questioning that unfolds often triggers unexpected discoveries.

The Christian faith is all about love and obedience - the keys are to desire the truth above all else, and ask God to teach you to hear His Voice.

if you love the truth, God will lead you to truth.
if you ask to Hear His Voice, He will teach you how.

then He will train you and your love will grow, and you will choose to obey His advice (because you can hear Him)

then, when you talk about Christ to anyone, believer or not, He will guide you to what to say, or not say - thus helping the person optimally in every case.

the problem with the world and christianity, are the disobedient christians obeying their carnal mind.

hope this helps someone,
nada

You say that you don't care about other people's beliefs but the way you say it I'm guessing that you do care. And that it bugs you. What is her relation to you?

I say leave it alone man and enjoy life.

I myself am a Christian. However, I used to share your views.

The difference now is that I'm not relying on someone else's research and theories to come a conclusion as to whether or not Jesus existed in the capacity claimed. I know for a fact that He did.

I've seen people that were born deaf and dumb speak after prayer in Jesus' name. I've seen the wheelchair bound walk after the same. I've seen what many of us would consider to be the worst of society (murderers, rapists etc) lead transformed lives, and the list continues.

While many of you will post responses to quickly dismiss the following claims as pre-arranged gimmicks designed simply to manipulate crowds (as I once did), I would ask you to consider the fact that I had known some of the people involved for the best part of my life.

Regardless of whether or not you believe what I've posted, these things all happened because of faith. In fact before you reply, think for a second, you're asking me to replace what I've personally seen and experienced with what is at best an educated guess. Hmmmm.

While I appreciate your comments, I for one say we need more faith...

To each their own, Gospelle. :)

Hey Michael, your petty little journey out of your way to send me -2 points for my religion is a virus comment is precisely the type of intolerant lashing out at people who believe differently that makes religion disgusting.

Apparently it's not enough to believe what you believe or speak your mind, you feel the need to reach out and punish others for not agreeing with you. (cue Monty Python...Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!)

I have no idea what the points are for here, but your actions speak volumes.

We do need more faith, but not in manufactured self-serving fantasies and boundaries that separate and decimate humanity.

To each their own, Gospelle. :)

Josh, am I to take that as you don't believe me? :)

I didn't expect you or many other people to, to be honest. Like I said, I used to think just like you and I wouldn't have begun to believe had I not seen the things that I have. I wouldn't ask or expect you to begin a Christian life based on a single blog post.

Whether or not you believe what I've said is up to you, but please cut your mum some slack because her faith isn't misplaced.

It's a stupid thing YOU stopped the conversation at that given moment.

You could have asked her about her exact beliefs.
More precisely by means of the Aristotelian method.

It could be worthwhile to find out what exactly she thinks about the message passed on in the Gospels and which parts of it she really knows by heart.

Every few people have a real understanding of the Scriptures, because their complex in themselves and ... even contradictory.

These contradictions are the seeds of the search for the truth...

To me, it's clear that scientificly one can't proof the existence of God, but one can't proof the non-existence of God neither.

Agnotiscism is the only scientific paradigm choice.

Anyway, the biggest problem many people have with their idea of God, is due to the major shift in the representation of the Supreme thanks to the Jesus figure. He's the one that put clearly forward the idea of a loving Father.

May question about the Holocaust isn't where was God, but where were the Christians ?

If the number of 144000 righteous mentionned by John seems an abomination the many Christians, but I doubt very many of the seem Christians would risk their own lifes to save that of others - even if they themselves belief those to be good human beings.

Mark 8:35

35 For those who want to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake, and for the sake of the gospel,* will save it.

Luke 10:25-37

25 Just then a lawyer stood up to test Jesus. ‘Teacher,’ he said, ‘what must I do to inherit eternal life?’ 26He said to him, ‘What is written in the law? What do you read there?’ 27He answered, ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbour as yourself.’ 28And he said to him, ‘You have given the right answer; do this, and you will live.’
29 But wanting to justify himself, he asked Jesus, ‘And who is my neighbour?’ 30Jesus replied, ‘A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell into the hands of robbers, who stripped him, beat him, and went away, leaving him half dead. 31Now by chance a priest was going down that road; and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan while travelling came near him; and when he saw him, he was moved with pity. 34He went to him and bandaged his wounds, having poured oil and wine on them. Then he put him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35The next day he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said, “Take care of him; and when I come back, I will repay you whatever more you spend.” 36Which of these three, do you think, was a neighbour to the man who fell into the hands of the robbers?’ 37He said, ‘The one who showed him mercy.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Go and do likewise.’

[these passages are essential to what I belief as a Christian]

Gospelle:

Whether or not you believe what I've said is up to you, but please cut your mum some slack because her faith isn't misplaced.

That's a matter of opinion, my friend, so like I did with her, we'll have to agree to disagree. :)

jansegers: I could have done that, but I didn't feel like pushing it. I'd rather agree to disagree with her than strain / break our relationship. Ultimately it's not hurting me, regardless of what she believes, so...

Why is religion such a heated debate? You are your own person and believe what you believe in your heart.

Does everyone take the Bible literally? I'm not trying to stir up more heat, just asking a question.

For example: Experiments have revealed that a story told/started at one end of the room is easily "lost in translation" along the way; ending up with a muddled account of the original. True? Please chime in.

How can something that was written by man, over 2000 years ago, been revised and updated more times than any other book in history, be taken literally and as fact?

And if you say you're Christian and live by every doctrine/discipline written in the "good book;" be honest with yourself: No one is that PERFECT.

Can you honestly say you've never lied, you don't drink, don't smoke, done drugs, stolen, cheated, etc.? Have a long hard look in the mirror and try convincing yourself of that. Good luck.

Here's the thing: Believe what YOU believe, and let others do the same. Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, beliefs and values they live and die by. Correct?

I'm no one to judge anyone else; nor is anyone for that matter. That's not our job, yeah?

Live and let live and don't push your values, beliefs nor lifestyle on anyone else. Don't judge others unless you want to be judged. Live your life the best you can, love, live and have faith in what you believe.

Again, these are my thoughts and opinions and I respect everyone else's input. He is the only one who can judge and pass down judgement, whomever HE/SHE may be to YOU.

Well written Josh. Unfortunately, both my parents are gone, hopefully in a better place; beyond our comprehension. My father died when I was young and my Mum died 6 years ago. It's been a struggle ever since. And, I just turned 26. But, I keep my faith, pray everyday, and try to live each day as best I can. One step and one day at a time. That's the best I can do.

Stay blessed everyone!

Regards,

e

Wonderful post, Josh. Even I find it the most irritating thing when people resort to close minded attitudes while discussing.