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You mean bloggers that believe that everything we do is mandated and planned by god(s)?

But no, yours is the only one I know that would willingly fit into that niche

I totally dislike any thought that every last breath I take on this planet has been planned out in advance.

Why if I was a God, I'd be bored to tears if I scripted everything and hit PLAY.

It's MUCH more fun to drop em in and see how they play with each other :)

Oli: You never fail to butt right into things you are so uneducated on. No one can teach you the Bible, because you don't believe it to be truth. I could go through the whole Exegesis on the topic of Salvation with you, but you would deny it like all "Free-Will" theists do. You have no desire to learn the true Bible, weather you believe it to be true or not. Yet you constantly and ignorantly debate. Where does this really leave someone?

Also, I might have the only Blog that keeps the Bible about Christ and not about Man, But that doesn't resemble error in itself. Like I said, You don't believe the bible to be true. The least you can do is humble yourself enough to take your first grade posts to an atheists site and post about creation evolving around Oli.

"Free-Will" theists always get debated into a hole, they aren't debating the topic of the Bible, or God. They are debating the lack of existence thereof.

P.S: If you actually studied up, MANY Christians believe in the complete sovereignty of God, and it is ever growing across the planet (like it was believed upon in the 1st century). People are finally letting go of themselves.

RightOn

I totally dislike any thought that every last breath I take on this planet has been planned out in advance.

Yea Most people do, Many Christians alike.

Suggesting otherwise actually suggest the existence of No God. If God didn't plan out all that is to be and say "And it was so", Like in all of creation in Genesis, then God Doesn't know everything, and doesn't create all. That is in conflict with the Bible, weather someone believes the Bible to be true or not.

Anyone can speculate on God's character. From what I understand, Christian beliefs and practices are supposed to come from the Bible. And the Bible teaches about a God that allows all to be because he says "And it was so", not because Man allows it to be. Debating this actually creates the absence of God, and the need for another deity that does possess full control.

I'm not entirely sure why you exploded like that... I was merely asking if what I thought you were looking for was what you were looking for (now I'm confused) and that I thought your blog was the only one I knew that fit that idea.

I didn't question any of it because I know that's your belief. I didn't even offer my opinion on the belief because it's fairly irrelevant to you finding new blogs...

I was just saying that your blog (apart from spoof-blogs) is the only one written in a manner that seems to care more about the holiness of God than the holiness of man... I'll keep an eye open though.

You never fail to butt right into things you are so uneducated on

I didn't have a choice! Or did I? *evil grin*

I don't see how free will suggests that there is no God. After all, did God not bestow free will upon on man himself?

then God Doesn't know everything, and doesn't create all.

I don't see how stating that all actions are because of free will sets up that God is not all knowing... Can't you create something and set it on its own path and still know what it's doing?

I'm not Christian so I'm not well-read enough to deliberate on things from the New Testament, but one theory I like is the concept of parallel universes all occuring simultaneously. Every single decision I make in my daily life puts me on a certain path, but if I were to have made a slightly different decision then my actions from that point would follow a different path. The theory is that in the universe there are an infinite number of parallel universes all occuring simultaneously, where every single "alternate decision" is played out, and then all the other decisions resulting from that one singular space-time split are played out as well. So there would be Me, in an alternate universe, having something else for lunch which would cause that Alternate Me to perhaps have something different for dinner, etc. etc.

Great Flash animation explaining how the 10th dimension would work as it relates to quantum physics and time travel.

Michael:

"I have visited numerous Christian blogs over the last few months and they all seem to be "Free-Will" driven. I was wondering if there are any bloggers out there that are Christ centered not Man centered??"

Maybe I don't understand what you're looking for, but are you trying to find blogs about Christianity that postulate Man has no free-will? I always thought the concept of Man having free will was a basic idea everyone believed in, for I make thousands of decisions in my daily life that I weigh both sides of, and then make a choice based on that and no one else's guidance.

I always thought that free will was critical for Christian faith. If there is no free will, how can you explain the problem of evil? Is it that we are merely automatons with no real value and thus pain and suffering has no consequence to us? Much as shorting out your computer wouldn't matter much to you if you had fifty more to play with?

Michael, your argument against free will by using "God said it was so" is valid (IMHO). God set out the rules for us moist meat robots. He said (in his Godly internal megaphone), "these chemicals will have these properties in these situations" and thus all situations were scripted. When the meteorite hit the Earth and killed the dinosaurs, its trajectory and existence was inevitable given starting conditions of our universe.

When the first man picked up a stick and said, "this be good for poking animals to death" his brain was acting as a result of physical laws and chemo-electric reactions inside. There was no free will, there was no capability in the man to act any other way. If he were put into the exact same situation (including his exact memory of events and physical condition) again - he would behave exactly the same.

Given this view, God need not have 'planned' out the world. He may have simply laid out the framework and watched it run along. As a programmer whose dabbled in AI - I fully know how this goes. You can manually compute and run forward to the current state without achieving it ("knowing it all"), but have not scripted everything out completely.

Michael, given that you seem to not believe in free will - how can you rationalize the problem of evil within the framework of Christianity?

Phantom:

"I always thought that free will was critical for Christian faith. If there is no free will, how can you explain the problem of evil? Is it that we are merely automatons with no real value and thus pain and suffering has no consequence to us?"

Whenever that is brought up I always receive the generic Christian answer of "God works in mysterious ways" which is totally unacceptable to me. One of my Uncles was killed as a young man, and my Dad told me that he asked his Catholic priest why God allowed his brother to die, and his priest told him that "God works in mysterious ways, and God needed your brother up in heaven more than he was needed down on Earth". As soon as my Dad heard that he immediately lost faith in Christianity, because what type of God would be so greedy as to take a person from the loving arms of their family simply because he/she deemed it more necessary.

Ah, the ever so fun 'free will versus pre-destination' topic...

Why is it that most Calvinists I have seen on the Interweb are so pushy about their belief in pre-destination?

There is scripture that backs up free will, and there is scripture which backs up pre-destination. And I think it to be ridiculous to assume that if one believes in free will that they are somehow denying the existence of God or are not centered on Christ. Do you presume to know their hearts?

By the way, hi 9rulers, it's nice to be here. :)

Or what about this - we don't technically have free will, but God as an infinitely capable being limits his own knowledge of what we see as the future, in effect resulting in free will.

When thinking this over (I have been recently...), I've come up with several arguments against free will with God in the picture, the foremost being that if God exists outside of time, then he can see all of time and it must be set. This could be argued against from the standpoint that from our point in time, the future doesn't exist yet.

The second is more interesting, but not perhaps as clear. Because we exist in the third dimension, all other points in the third dimension also exist and are defined (e.g. because you exist, whatever is 45 meters to your left also exists and is defined). This can be applied as a higher analogy to the lower dimensions, or perhaps as an analogy to higher dimensions - the fourth, say, passage through which is considered to be time. Because we exist in a point in time, all other points in time must also exist and be defined. If they're all defined, there's no room for no deviation. No free will, even if it seems like it from our point of view.

Just so you see where I'm coming from, I am a Christian. What I'm saying here is that whether or not we have free will (though there's enough reasoning against it) isn't necessarily relevant - if God can reasonably limit his own knowledge of our future... not sure where that was going, never mind. The effect of it all is that we do, for what that's worth.

I wrote a speech with these arguments recently... hm. [ looks ] Aha, here we go.

Sum point: does it matter? In all practicality, we do have free will, whether we technically do or not.

Of course, it does matter... My point may therefore be moot. [ sighs ]

I don't see how free will suggests that there is no God. After all, did God not bestow free will upon on man himself?

Yes Indeed God did give us "Free-Will", What we must do is define what our "Free-Will" actually exists of. Are we able to do anything and everything that we please? If not, we need to understand and define how our "free-will" is limited. For instance, A DOG has no "free-will" it is pre-programmed according to Christian beliefs. But the Dog is free to act like a dog, it is however limited in that it can't act like a human.

I always thought that free will was critical for Christian faith. If there is no free will, how can you explain the problem of evil?

That is EXACTLY it! In my division of faith (reformed) we believe our "Free-Will" is limited by what we are, Which is "Fallen" man, aka "Sinners". All of our actions are a result of or tainted by Sin, Our free will is limited in that every single thing we do has been corrupted by sin. This explains Evil.

RightOn:

I think it to be ridiculous to assume that if one believes in free will that they are somehow denying the existence of God

Michael, given that you seem to not believe in free will - how can you rationalize the problem of evil within the framework of Christianity?

First, when I say "Free-will" theism, I am talking about Christian free-will theists. I have already mentioned I believe we have "Free-Will" I believe our Free-Will is limited in what we are, Which is sinners. Weird.

Quote from carm.org

Open Theism states that God has granted to people free will and that in order for this free will to remain free, God cannot know ahead of time what the choices of people will be. They reason that if God knew a future choice of a person, then that person would not be truly free to choose anything different when the time comes to make that choice. Therefore, they say, if God knows the future free will choices of people, then it means that free will doesn't really exist.

Furthermore, they hold to a view of free will known as libertarian free will. This is the position that a person is equally able to make choices between options independent of pressures or constraints from external or internal causes. In other words, the person is able to equal choose between any set of options. By contrast, compatibilist free will holds that a person can choose only that which is consistent with his nature and that there are constraints and influences upon his ability to choose. In libertarian free will, a sinner is equally able to choose God or reject God regardless of his sinful condition. In compatibilist free will, a sinner can only choose to do that which is consistent with his sinful nature.

When I created this topic in the religion section I was hoping to find Christians that hold to the historic Christian beliefs. Modern Christianity has become "Seeker Sensitive" in that people teach and preach "You need to come to Christ". The problem with this is that Scripture teaches salvation comes through Faith, and not all of man will have faith, meaning not all of man will be saved, and that those whom have Faith are pre-desinted to have it before the foundations of the earth. If one can choose or refuse God/Christ, This would contrast with "Before the foundations of the earth" We cant choose before we exist. I am looking for other Bloggers that hold to Historic Christianity not a modern seeker sensitive, new age self-righteous doctrine. Anthough I am enjoying reading everyones veiws on "Free-Will".

Michael, without getting in to the debate, and to answer the original question posed in this thread, I believe one of our fellow 9rulers is a Calvinist and might be who you're looking for.

I have been reading a fair bit on Chris Poteet's Imperishable Inheritance blog. He has quite a lot of material on the subject in question.

I am not Christian - infact don't subscibe to any religion but I do believe in the notion of cause and action. Call it karma if you like, but it's one thing that I believe in. There was a lot of talk a while ago about Chaos theory and butterflies flapping wings - I actually think there is a cause and action basis to this world. The old phrase 'you reap what you sow' runs through a lot of core religions and is true to me. Couple that with 'treat others how you'd like to be treated' you've got a good basic guide to living. I don't subscibe to some big book in the sky with my life written in it, I do think you can shape your own destiny - but what action you take has a reaction.

Cyrris: Well, I just believe in the bible, I don't really call myself a Calvinist. I think most people that believe in pre-destination/elect are by default labeled a Calvinist. The thing is, both topics are all over the Bible, I Don't see why we aren't just labeled Christian. I guess that's ok because I usually brand all Free-Will theists with the title Arminian. The fact is, when studying historic Christianity one will start to notice that the "Free-Will" doctrine wasn't what was originally taught and believed upon. Martin Luther and His 95 thesis is evidence of the attempt to bring things back to the way they were originally. In the 1800's Christianity in Amercia started to spiral out of control with many new sects and devisions. A lot of this is credited to Alexander and Thomas Chambell and their "Restoration Movement" started in 1801. This created a level of arrogance and in turn created many denominations like JW's, Mormons, Christadelphians, Deciples of Christ and then the ones titling themselves "Church of Christ", as if All true Christian Churches aren't "Churches of Christ". Not to mention the "Seeker Sensitive" Churches that are mainly Charasmatic. I do thank you though for pointing me towards Imperishable Inheritance, I will check this out.

Whether or not you believe in free will the bible contradicts itself, so I'd say it's rather obvious that some parts of the bible are incorrect. If I was a christian I wouldn't attribute the error to god of course, but to man who has interpreted his words for so many thousands of years.

Faith is a choice. You choose to believe, despite the lack of any proof. Denying free will is denying your humanity. This line of reasoning is often use to attempt to excuse atrocities.

Hey Michael, good reasoning there, I can see you're definitely someone who studies all religions. I'll have to read up on Calvinism more, unfortunately I haven't even thought of it since high school history class :)

"Whether or not you believe in free will the bible contradicts itself"

Well, It all depends on the theology really. I agree with you though, the majority of Christians believe and practice a contradicting theology. I would say even more people don't understand the scriptures and take them out of context, and in full this displays a large contradiction.

Mike

Honestly, I'm not sure if you are serious or not! :) For now I will guess you are and Thank you for the compliment! I do study a lot, I believe studying the History of Christianity and religion overall is important. I am not your "Cookie Cutter" religious buff. I don't force things on people because, honestly, that's not what the Bible teaches anyway. But yes, while studying the History of Christianity I have humbled myself to learn from former Theologians and the such. One thing that is really interesting among most Christians is there immediate dismissal of theologians like John Calvin. What is funny is the majority of these people have never even read any of Calvins writings and they completely misunderstand his Theology, They don't even realize where his 5 points came from. The majority of these people also learn their Christian/religious history from their pastors that have never read the works of Calvin either. Or read it with an already made up mind. Pastors that completely dismiss and ignore the portions of the Bible that mention pre-destination and the elect. They actually teach this: "Just because the apostle Paul titles the saved in the bible as being the elect and pre-destined, how do you know that this still happens today". This is actually called "Dispensationalism", They devide the bible into dispensations and claim that God deals with people differently in relation to salvation throughout the dispensations. What this really claims is that the Bible is incomplete... Kinda contradicting isn't it?

What Paul teaches in relation to salvation is:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Ephesians 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Kinda interesting isn't it? I Think the majority of people are turned of By Christianity because of the boastfulness in their salvation doctrine.

And that NO ONE Seeks for God in their unrighteousness.

Romans 3:10 THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
Romans 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
(The verses are in caps from Paul quoting the Old Testament)

So how does on get saved according to the bible?

Rom 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to {His} purpose.

Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

Rom 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Pretty easy to understand it isn't because WE Choose, It's because GOD Chooses. Weather one believes the Bible to be true or not, that is what it teaches. It does not teach "You need to find/come to/seek God" On account of your own "free-will" like the majority of Christianity teaches today.

This is why I am looking for non "Free-Will" Theistic Christian blogs.
I wasn't trying to bore people with Scriptures, Just trying to support my reasoning.

I am a theological determinist from the reformed tradition. I believe that freedom in a moral sense (accountable for actions) is compatible with theological determinism which would be opposed to libertarian freedom espoused by [most] Christians by intuition (which contains the Principle of Alternative Possibilities).

What this point of view suggests to me is there no point in existence, of god or his creations. It's like renting a video and playing it while no one watches.

The point of existence is that God does/creates all things according to His own Will, For His own Glory.

I'm sure this has already been stated by men much smarter than me... but believing in Free-Will doesn't denote a Man Centered world view.

The point of existence is that God does/creates all things according to His own Will, For His own Glory.

Statements like these make God sound rather pompass and selfish.

"Hmm... We're bored. We know, We'll create the universe to show ourselves how great We are. Also, We'll create a race of beings who We'll put on a planet, then tell them we're here, but also confuse them with a bunch of other distractions. And We'll set this other guy -- the light guy, what's his name -- to get the blame, 'cuz, you know, We controll all their actions. If the people on the planet don't make the right choices, We'll torture them for ever and ever and ever. Actually, We'll one up that: We'll instead already pre-select who won't be tortured in the end. (We'll decide all their actions beforehand.) As for the others, We'll make sure they act in such a way so as to send 'em to the pit of fire. So, we'll just create them to burn in Hell. For ever and ever and ever. That'll show Us how great I am."

(This is why predestination, in the strict sense, doesn't make any sense to me.)

michaellouviere, firstly, there is a major problem with limiting our free-will to our being fallen since Adam was not created a fallen being, but became such through free-will. Or would you argue that Adam sinned at the direction of God, which would be God completely contradicting himself.

Secondly, the issue of free-will and God's supremacy is a paradox and I'm not sure anyone can grasp the fullness of this at all until the day of glory. But let me at least provide two reasons working together to show why I believe providence and full free-will are both possible.

I think that many times we forget that God is beyond time, that in fact, God created time, so that a thousand years is as a day is not so metaphorical. Ever wonder why the prophets were always right about the future even though they spoke in the past? Is it not possible to so great a God as this to know tomorrow as if it were yesterday, to predestine those whom He has already seen choose? Is that such an outrageous idea? So often we constrain God to be three-dimensional like us that we forget that He is so much more.

Grace really wouldn't be grace if it wasn't a choice. The most significant chapter to me for support of full fledged free-will is Romans 5 specifically verse 18, "Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men." The main focus being on "life for all men" not just "life for the elect" or "life for the few."

That's not to say that the elect does not exist for surely only the elect will be saved. But that does not tell me that the gift of life is not available to all. Surely the gift of Christ's sacrifice is sufficient to cover the ruin Adam left, even if it is not efficient for all. The elect are those that choose to grasp the gift of their own free will. Predestination occurs because God knows not our time constraint.

Seems I've been rambling a little, but I hope you get the idea. Then again, the elect are the elect no matter how you consider sufficiency and efficiency. So at the end of the day, I'll think what I think, and let you think what you think and we'll both go forth and make disciples of all nations, right?

Theology is theory and theory is always flawed.

The bible is, at best, a collection of recollections by and from imperfect men. I believe it's contents as ultimate truth as much as I believe the contents of Forever Odd by Dean Koontz.

michaellouviere, you wrote, "It [the Bible] does not teach 'You need to find/come to/seek God'" But I beg to differ with you on this. I would suggest reading the full chapters to get more context.

Deut. 5:28-29 "There you will worship man-made gods of wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or eat or smell. But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul."

I Chron. 16:10-11 "Glory in his holy name; let the hearts of those who seek the LORD rejoice. Look to the LORD and his strength; seek his face always.

I Chron. 22:19 "Now devote your heart and soul to seeking the LORD your God. Begin to build the sanctuary of the LORD God, so that you may bring the ark of the covenant of the LORD and the sacred articles belonging to God into the temple that will be built for the Name of the LORD."

I Chron. 28:9 "And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever."

Many more in the Old Testament. And yes, there are New Testament references as well.

Luke 11:9-10 "So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."

Acts 15:16-18 "'After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things' that have been known for ages."

Acts 17:26-28 "From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'"

Heb 11:6 "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."

I think you get the idea now.

Oh, and by the way (for the sake of the ignorant), Open Theism is not the same as Arminianism. Open Theists hold that salvation is completely man's effort. Arminianism holds to a shared effort between God and man. Open Theists believe that God cannot know the future. Arminianism holds that God knows everything. There are other differences, but these are the main relevant to the discussion.

eternalsword

Yea, we seek God in our righteousness, he is our Father at this point. Notice those verses speak along the lines of "seek the LORD your God". Notice the "Your"? At that point it is our God as believers, not unbelievers. The bible teaches that we don't seek for God in our unrighteousness. The bible teaches mans natural rebellion towards God, This is consistent throughout all of scripture, not dispensational views and devision of the OT/NT. (romans):

3-10: THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
3- 11: THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
3-12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

That is what I said. Unless one doesn't respect and identify context in scripture. It is tought that only when God works in us can we and will we come to Him. It is God that chooses those whom will serve. This is represented throughout exegetical studies. For instance, in Romans chapter 9 it is said:

10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;

11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."

13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!

15For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."

This teaches the act of GOD Choosing since the beginning, first the Jews then later the Gentiles also. These verses show that even though Rebekah's children had not yet been born, GOD Chose which would serve (His choice would stand). Not because of Works of the children but because He Chose! That is the opposite of what is taught in the majority of the modern Church. It is commonly taught that we must "Come to God", The bible teaches that God comes to Us, Chooses us, Only then can we come to God, For then He is our father. It is not due to our Works, something good in us that makes us able to know God, It is only God alone that makes Himself known to us. Only then can we seek for Our Father. It is not that there is something good in some of us, so that we recognize God. Many people like to believe that we play a part in our salvation. It is taught that we must "Ask Jesus into our heart", Sounds like a "Work" to me! The bible doesn't teach to "Ask Jesus into your heart". It teaches:

Romans 13:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

13:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified”.

God Predestines us, then calls us, then Justifies Us and then Glorifies Us. Not because we Choose, because HE Chooses. :)

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

We are saved by Gods Grace! Not by Ourselves! Seeking or choosing would be of ourselves. The teaching that we must Choose/Seek God in our unrighteousness not only contrasts scripture, but it is also why Paul taught that salvation is a Gift of God so that No man may boast! Teaching that it is due to our choosing God depends on ourselves, a work and is boastfull. I give God all the Glory.

michaellouviere, you're really playing a word game with the "your God" as if him being "your God" negates Him from being God of all. Please read the verses again and you will see there are those that don't have "your God." In fact, not even one mentions "your God" which makes me wonder if you were even paying attention.

Who again is it that gives us the ability to choose but God Himself? A choice is not a work, and even if it was, it comes with the faith or as a result of the faith. I'm sure you've read the book of James, but perhaps you just choose to ignore it.

James 2:14-26

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Faith goes together with works, the one cannot save without the other.

Also consider, if none can resist the choosing of God, then that makes me wonder about 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." Because this says that God has chosen that everyone can come to repentence.

Also note in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10
"The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved."

How can someone refuse something if they do not have the ability to accept it, or choose it if you will? If there was no choice involved, this would say "They perish because they were unable to love the truth and so be saved."

You also seemed to have completely ignored my first post for some reason. If you had read it, you would realize that I in fact do believe that God chooses us. I believe at the same time that we choose to follow Him. Let me also ask you this, if it was purely the choice of the God not wanting any to perish, then why did He choose to allow Adam to sin in the first place? Perhaps it was because God Himself wanted to be chosen? Perhaps to be loved by choice?

I take that back, the first one says "seek the LORD your God" but the rest do not. Perhaps you read it in the first and assumed it in all of them?

oops, missed one in the third verse as well, so sue me.

michaellouviere, you're really playing a word game with the "your God" as if him being "your God" negates Him from being God of all.

No, It was just a mis-understanding (maybe the way I typed it), I wasn't claiming that Christ isn't the GOD of all, But more that he isn't the "Father" of all is what I meant. Scriptures teach that Christ is certainly not the father for all and not all of man was given to Him by the Father. I will try to reply to your post as best I can with utmost humilty. :)

A choice is not a work

No, But someone choosing is "of yourselves", which Paul taught once again:

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;

Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Some claim the only way one can be saved is if they make the decision to follow Christ by "choosing" Him. I maintain that God chooses those whom will follow Christ, He Calls them, Justifies, Sanctifies and then Glorifies.

I'm sure you've read the book of James, but perhaps you just choose to ignore it.

James 2:14-26

Umm, Since you presented it in so much humility (cough) I will be glad to reply....

May it be heard! I have never or will never claim that when one becomes saved they do not work out their salvation doing good deeds and presenting a Christ like spirit. But I DO CLAIM that this in itself does nothing in the way of God granting a person salvation. God doesn't save some people because he sees something "good" in them. He saves them solely to display His Mercy and His Glory. God works all things for His own Glory:

Ephesians 1:11
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

Also consider, if none can resist the choosing of God, then that makes me wonder about 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." Because this says that God has chosen that everyone can come to repentence.

Well, Again, It all depends on ones identification of Scriptural Context. Since I wouldn't want to take this passage out of context, I would ask "who did Peter write his second letter to?" Was it to everyone? The whole world, every man that ever lived everywhere? Or did he write this letter to certain people, a specific kind? I don't know, let's just say....Christians? Let's look at the passage right before the one you quoted:

2 Peter 3:8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

Uh oh! I see that Peter is speaking to the "Beloved", Must be the whole world, everyone, everywhere, that ever lived is Peters "Beloved"? I think not, Peter was speaking and writing this letter to Christian Believers. Now let's look at 2 Peter 3:9 again and see if it makes more sense :)

eter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise" <--- What is the "Lords Promise"? His Promise is His return!

"as some understand slowness" <--- Some of us will understand that even though 2000+ years seems like a long time to us on earth, It is VERY LITTLE Compared to eternity.

"He is patient with you" <--- Who is the "you"? everyman that ever lived? No, we already found out that the "you" Peter is speaking to is the "Beloved".

"but everyone to come to repentance" <---- Yea, for the benefit of the doubt, lets say "everyone" in this context is everyman, that ever lived, everywhere, even though Peter was speaking that everyone of the Beloved come to repentance. Not everyman, everywhere that ever lived WILL Come to repentance, God knew this from the beginning, He actually willed it so! Claiming otherwise would actually suggest God didn't know something from the beginning, would this be a God at all I would ask?

2 Thessalonians 2:9-10: The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

Well, Let's go all the way back to the begining of the chapter to see what is being presented here:

2 Thess 1: Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,

2 Thess 2: not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.

Ok, So we see that this concerns the coming of Christ, it is directed at those whom are "Brothers", we are being taught not to be scared or "alarmed" when false prophets come our way claiming Christ has already came, basically saying He isn't coming again. Now lets look at the passages you picked:

2 Thess 2:9-10: The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved

"The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders" <---- The false prophet!

"and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing" <--- These acts from the false prophet decieves those whom, what? are already perishing!

"They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved" <-- Yes many people refuse to "love the truth",some people really do "love the truth", But they never get saved. I would look at the "and so be saved", in this context I believe that the "and so be saved" simply means God didn't save them.

How can someone refuse something if they do not have the ability to accept it, or choose it if you will?

I don't believe anyone of Gods elect can refuse Gods Grace, They believe and acquire faith because God does a work in their heart. They do not Choose God, God chooses them. This is what I maintain.

I believe at the same time that we choose to follow Him.

Correct me if I am wrong sir, Are you saying that God Chose you because You Chose Him? The Bible says we (Christians) are a "Chosen before the foundations of the world". How can we choose before we are created and before the foundations of the world??

Ephesians 1:4 : just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love

Here in second peter pretty much sums it up for me:

1 Peter 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

We (Christians) are a "Chosen Race".

We are Chosen to Glorify God.

So that we may proclaim His majesty, Because HE has CALLED us (Christians) out of the darkness into His Light! When he "Calls" us is when he does a work in our Heart so that we are even able to really, truly believe in Him, then we can "seek" Him as our Father.

Let me also ask you this, if it was purely the choice of the God not wanting any to perish, then why did He choose to allow Adam to sin in the first place?

I don't maintain that God didn't "want" anyone to perish, I maintain the only way for anyone to Perish at all is because God actually willed it so. If He didn't will it so, then is our God really a God at all? Does he really possess full control over the universe? I believe He does. He allowed Adam to sin so that He could display His own Holiness, Majesty and Grace upon some of Man. The only way to distinguish God Grace on some of Man is for some of man to NOT receive God's Grace. In the words of C.S Lewis: "A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line."

May all my brethren be blessed in abundance in the Love of Christ!

All the Glory to God!
For I am only a wretched sinner saved by Grace.

I apologize if I came out as being haughty, I do tend to get a bit heated during debate.

First off, let me clarify, I believe that what God chooses, He knows, and what He knows, He chooses. I believe that God is not constrained by time and that He knows everything. He knows and hence chooses those who choose Him, but it is no less a choice on the part of the human. Otherwise, I honestly believe that such a loving and merciful God would choose everyone.

I also believe that God must have withheld His power to allow our free will, otherwise His overwhelming supremacy would not have allowed Adam to sin in the first place. In this way, choice itself is a gift of God, and not of ourselves, and the fact that the choice even presents itself is the work of the Holy Spirit.

And I absolutely cannot accept a Holy God willing unholiness into existence. If this were so, God would be responsible since Adam would not have a choice in the matter, and God would be unholy just as much as Adam, a complete contradiction, since God defines holiness. In this context, there is no crooked line unless the man distorts the straight.

Let me rephrase one sentence that didn't come across how I wanted.

Last sentence first main paragraph should read,

Otherwise, I honestly believe that such a loving and merciful God would will everyone to be chosen.

gah, let me rewrite that entire last post, minus the first sentence. I must have been half asleep when I wrote it, contradicting myself and such...

First off, let me clarify, I believe that what God wants is a superset to what God wills. So everything God wills, He wants, but not everything He wants He wills. Fitting with that, I believe that what God allows are those things opposing His desires in things He decides to not will. I believe God wants everyone to come to repentence. I believe God wants and wills that those who do repent are His chosen. I believe that God does not want but allows there to exist those who do not repent. Because He allows this, God must also want and will judgment upon them if they should fail to repent. This in no way shape or form takes away from the idea that He wants them to repent.

An example of His will differentiating from His desire is found in Luke 13:34, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!" This tells me first of all that they were in fact not gathered, an example of God allowing what He did not want. It also tells me that God responds to the decisions of men in a cause effect manner. Because they were unwilling, God did not gather them. If they had been willing, God would have gathered them.

It may seem paradoxical, but I believe that God chooses the chosen before the foundation of the world because He already knows those who answer His call to repentence, and that call goes out to everyone. It is His call, we merely respond. If left in God's desires alone, I believe that such a loving and merciful God would bring everyone to repentance.

I also believe that God must have withheld His power to allow our free will, otherwise His overwhelming supremacy would not have allowed Adam to sin in the first place. In this way, choice itself is a gift of God, and not of ourselves, and the fact that the choice even presents itself is because of the work of the Holy Spirit who convicts and the sacrifice of Christ who redeems, which by the way can be boasted about boldly.

And I absolutely cannot accept a Holy God willing unholiness into existence. If this were so, God would be responsible since Adam would not have a choice in the matter, and God would be unholy just as much as Adam, a complete contradiction, since God defines holiness. I believe God allowed unholiness to come into existence. In this context, there is no crooked line unless the man distorts the straight.

Okay, I think that comes across more in line with what I think. Language can be a tricky thing sometimes :p

Let me ask you some rhetorical questions in response to

If He didn't will it so, then is our God really a God at all? Does he really possess full control over the universe?

If God cannot differentiate between what He wants and what He wills, then is our God really a God at all? Does He really possess full control over Himself? If He cannot control Himself, how can He be expected to control anything else?

I believe God is in full control of the universe, because everything He wills happens. But I also believe that God is in full control of Himself, that He can choose not to will something even if He wants it. Case in point, a simple argument: Sin is not something God wants. If sin exists, then not everything God wants He wills. Sin exists, therefore, not everything God wants, He wills.

The stance I take you to be arguing from is this.
All sins are things God wills.
All things God wants He wills.
So, All sins, God wants.

In logical form, this is.
All S are W.
All N are W.
So, All S are N.

While the argument is valid, the problem is, the conclusion is clearly false. So either one, or both of the premises must also be false. If you take the first to be false, then not everything is controlled by God's will. If you take the second to be false, then either some things He wants He doesn't will, which is what I claim, or some things He wills He doesn't want, which is nonsense because if God willed something He didn't want, He would be acting against His very nature. Notice that He can want something and not will it while maintaining His nature, it is other things that may detract from His nature, but not necessarily. I hope you can see that either premise you choose to be false does not bode well for the stance you have taken.

Michael, I'm a "non 'free-will'" blogger.

Eternalsword wrote:

"And I absolutely cannot accept a Holy God willing unholiness into existence."

Here are two articles that may help.

From John Piper: Are There Two Wills of God?

And also from a determinist: The Author of Sin

Hi,

one way that i've look at free will and predestination is through the light of our corporate being. Scripture indicates that God tends to look at us corporately, through either the first man, Adam or the second man, Christ. So in Him (that is Christ) I am a chosen, before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless... and in Him we "are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION..." We are predestined in Him to be all these things. All in Christ are predestined to Life and Righteousness, just as all who are not in Christ are in death.

Does this take away from our free will? No, because everyman has the choice to be in Christ.

Did God predetermine our choice, or how does God percieve us right now in time and how did God percieve us individually before time began? I think guessing God's perception is an impossible thing to do. As mentioned before, God is not bound by time and we are. It is impossible then, for us to comprehend how an eternal being who is not bound by time percieves reality because our own perception and reality is blurred by our experience and understanding of time. We do know, by experience and by revelation that we have the ability to choose and the ability to choose is an excercise of our free will.

Yes from our POV we experience choice. But choice is mysterious when it applied to the topic of belief. How do you choose to fall in love? How do you choose what your favorite color is?

I would say the scriptures give us a pretty good idea about God's perception.

Psalms 139:16
Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there were none of them

Romans 9:11
...though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call...

Romans 9:16,18
...it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy .. He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills.

To say that God calls everyone also doesn't make sense with Romans 8:

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

If God calls ALL then that means ALL are justified which means ALL are glorified. Welcome to universalism.

Let me try to explain what I am thinking as of this moment. In Scripture, men are grouped into two distinct categories facing two distinct and determined destinies. There is the first category that is destined to die because of sin. We have the man Adam, the old man who is cursed and destined to die because of sin. Every son of Adam has died because of sin and every son of Adam will die. So every Scripture that would indicate every man is evil and every man will die because of sin is speaking of the Adam Man.

We also have the man of Grace, that is Christ. Everyman, without exception who is in Christ has already died and is now a new man. As scripture sas, "if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"

Really, this is a new creation of men. This new creation God foreknew, this new creation of men he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. This new creation of men whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. All of the new creation and none of the old. No old creation Son of Adam partakes in this promise. God did not predestine any of the old creation to partake in his glory.

I really died and became something new when I came into Christ. God did not know the old man and as a new man i am different in the very essence of my being from the Old man. What has happened to the old man that was once destined to die? He diedm, the old self has passed away. So when God speaks of his elect he is only speaking of the new man - not the old.

Free will comes into play because I have a choice. I can choose not to be a part of the Adam man. I can choose to be a part of another kind of man of a completely different nature. I can choose to die now and live as a new creation in Christ.

So I guess you can say that I do believe in a kind of universalism. All Old-Men will die, universally. All New-Men will live, universally. God foreknew all New-Men universally... Pardon if I've not conveyed my thoughts on this coherently. - nabiy

"All Old-Men will die, universally. All New-Men will live, universally."

While I agree with your statement, can you please show me how you think that is the idea Paul continues to communicate on through Romans 8,9, 10 and 11?

To say "We choose God because He chose us" may not seem fair but it makes sense. To say "God chose us because we chose Him" doesn't make sense in the light of the whole scripture.

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began...

Notice that God's purpose is mentioned quite often in verses that are discussing who chose who.

Look at the Old Testament, leading to the New Testament, all of history since then that leads us to the book of Revelation and you will see that God has:

• A sense of perspective
• A sense of direction
• A sense of continuity
• A sense of purpose

If God only foreknew and did not determine what mankind would choose then that makes the Almighty Creator no more than a mere fortune teller. A fortune teller can not claim to have a purpose for foretold events as the God of the Bible does.

Ephesians 1:9-11
God has now revealed to us his mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill his own good pleasure. And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ—everything in heaven and on earth. Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan.

What I've been trying to say all along is that God has no need to foreknow. To Him, it's already happened, omnipresent not just in space, but in time. Time had a beginning and God started it. Time will have an ending and God is already there. So I don't say God chose us because we chose Him, I say God chose us because God chose, period. This does not detract in any way from the free will of man and the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice for all.

That John Piper piece was a good read. And I agree for the most part. When speaking on the delight God has in punishing the wicked, I see this as a delight in purging a wound from a beloved. Purging a wound increases pain in the beloved, likewise causing distress on the one doing the purging, but there is great delight to be found with the expectation that the wound will heal.

Going back to what I've said before, there are things God does not want but allows (big lens will as Piper would put it) and then there are things that God puts into action, what I have called His will (small lens will).

I haven't said everything I wanted to yet, but it's getting late and I want my mind clear when discussing this complex issue.

And there is also this. It is good for God to be holy and to desire holiness, therefore it is good for God to punish against unholiness. It is also good for God to be full of grace and therefore want to extend that grace. I see no reason why God should not delight in doing good period. The question is, when God chooses what course of action to take, is it something He wanted or is it something done as a consequence to something He didn't want?

In the case of punishment, I think it is done as a consequence to unholiness without movement toward saving grace, something God didn't want. In terms of saving grace, I think it is something God desires everyone to take hold of so that in His eyes they are no longer unholy and no longer need punishment, while knowing that not everyone will take it. At this point then, God delights in giving saving grace and wants to delight in giving it to everyone, but not everyone will take it, so God delights in punishing those who do not.

What it comes down to is this, God would rather someone accept the saving grace and not be punished than to reject the saving grace and require punishment. That does not take away from the ability of God to delight in punishing. And notice in the John Piper's piece that all of the scenarios of the "two wills" are scenarios in which sin is already present.

I think it's essential to also think of what God's will was like before the fall. God gave a command, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." This is the commanding will of God, much like with the Pharaoh, but the circumstances are different because man has not yet sinned. My point the entire time has been that God allowed sin to occur because He allowed free will but that He was not Himself the cause.

You may also notice that not once have I ever claimed that God does not elect. My problem is in the limiting of man's free will in the process. I think Piper summed up my view on things. "A corresponding aim is to show that unconditional election therefore does not contradict biblical expressions of God's compassion for all people, and does not nullify sincere offers of salvation to everyone who is lost among all the peoples of the world." Although I would add to that, that the unconditional election does not contradict the ability of man to have full free will.

This does not detract in any way from the free will of man and the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice for all.

Yes it does, it completely contradicts it.

It's really simple. If there is a god, and it's omniscient including knowing everything that will happen, then it is in some form already "written." That negates free will. The negation of free will negates any value of jesus's sacrifice. There's no point forgiving sins of others if you yourself orchestrated and intended their existance in the first place.

Let me try an analogy as limited though it may be for comparison's sake. Say you see a child throw a vase into the air. With the expectation being that since the child threw it up, the vase will fall and break, you choose to go catch the vase to keep it from breaking. Is it not the case that as humans, though we limited by time, we can be in a position to choose to do something now because we have an expectation for the future.

What would it be like then to be both in today and tomorrow at the same "time"? Would it not be completely possible to choose today based on what one knows from tomorrow without having to lock-in what happens today and tomorrow? Perplexing is it not? (I'm not saying that nothing is ever locked-in, but that not everything is locked-in.)

Let me put it this way. Tomorrow is not a completely blank page, there are some things that God has written, but there are things yet to be filled in. The thing is, God has already read the finished book because He is already at the end. This does not mean that God wrote everything Himself but that He has the knowledge of everything that gets written. It is in some form already written from the perspective of God, but that does not mean that the parts that were filled in by us were not by our own choosing.

You are contradicting your own points.

If God has already read and finished the book, that means that there is no free will, no choice, it is already done. No matter what we decide, it has already been decided, and from God's perspective, it is already done.

It is actually irrelevant to the argument at this point if God was the one that wrote those choices. The fact that they are written eliminates the possibility of free will.

If a god exists that has complete knowledge across all time, it eliminates any possibility of free will by definition. If you believe in such a god, you can not logically believe in free will.

There is a difference between knowing what choice was chosen by the chooser and choosing that choice for the chooser. The fact of it being choice out of free will does not change once it has already happened, otherwise no one would believe in free will. You chose to read at least part of my last post; does that then mean that I, knowing that you chose to read it am expected to believe that you did not of your own free will choose to read it?

An action being locked into history once it occurs does not mean that before the action occurred, there were not other possible outcomes. What I'm saying is that for some things, God has determined how it will be. For other things, it is choice by free will that locks things into place. I'm just saying that God already knows the choices made by free will.

While I agree with your statement, can you please show me how you think that is the idea Paul continues to communicate on through Romans 8,9, 10 and 11?

I think the idea of corporate unity underpins alot of Paul's Theology. Throughout Romans 8, 10 and 11 the Apostle refers to those in Christ, the corporate unity of Israel and their adoptation as sons and the corporate being of the Gentiles saved in Christ.

Scripture gives the reason they are objects of wrath, that is because they did not submit to God's righteousness. They refused his grace - so by their decision and persistant unbelief they have become objects of wrath.

Also, i think eternalsword is right on and the contradiction comes more from that fact that we can't understand how a supreme being outside of time can create beings inside time and give them free will to make decisions within time. The problem is we lack the capacity to comprehend how he would reason or even interact with us outside of time.

Ok, this is my point of view. And if anyone explodes on me like michaellouviere did on Oli, i will fuckin bust a cap! lol. Not really, i just think it is so ridiculous how people actually put other people's beliefs down, because who the fuck really knows, right? anyways.....after being raised by a zealous christian mother (who by the way is the most amazing person i know, and the best example of a Christian i have ever met) i still have developed my own opinion that i can not trust God. I really feel that in the big scheme of things, God is evil. I guess this could be contributed to my ignorace (ignorance: not being there when the earth was created ((yes, i do believe that we had to of been created, we are far too complex)) and when God ((if it happened like this)) was appointed leader of everything....made to plan out lives, and things like heaven and hell) but let me explain, before i have a bunch of close minded, hard-pressed believers knocking down my door (yes, i said that just to be a bitch, sometimes it is fun to be a bitch and get people all riled up..lol)

1) If god planned everything out the way he did....he planned for adam and eve to fail in the garden of eden....evil

2)If god created everything, he created heaven and hell.... Heaven to me seems boring (who wants to sing and praise god all day?) and hell...well thats just....evil.

3)God knows what is going to happen in our lives right? So he planned it...if then we are predestined to go to heaven or hell...what the fuck is this free-will shit? honestly

4)Ultimately i feel like we are here for gods entertainment. Like a big game of chess. I feel like he is up there sitting on his gold plated chair and indulging in the sadness of our ignorant lives, saying to himself "Oh, if they only knew...ahahhahaha"......evil

Maybe i am bitter....who knows....but since i was a little girl i could not sit in church because i couldnt help to feel like everyone there was brainwashed. My mind has been tortured all of my life for my uncertainty, but its something i have come to accept. I will always doubt, and since i am that way, i do not claim to be a christian. I would never want to give christians a bad name (like most of them give themselves). I believe that the principles of the religion are great, and i have alot of really great christian friends, who are loving and giving, and non-judgmental. But i do not believe that god is a sovereign loving god (if he really exists).....