The Midnight Hour

Exciting story. I can only imagine the danger you marines experienced. I pray daily for the safe return for all troops. Unfortunately safe return does not always happen. Thankful that you did return safe.

Happy Holidays

A day at the office for a Marine in Iraq. And you write so well too! Thank you for sharing this with us.

Semper gratus!

You have a great way of telling the story, I could see it and hear it through your eyes. Stay safe M8:)

dude…handful of hair. Too funny.

I have been searching for some info as to what my son is going through. Maybe I have finally found the right site. He is a marine with 3/12. I would like to know if you have any news from that camp?

The only camp I have news from is Camp Pendleton. I have returned to the US.

Thank you for replying.

Thank you for replying. Would you be aware of any blog that is now coming from Camp Fallujah? Thanking you in advance.

Jeff,

I wanted to respond to your article on Michael Yon’s Frontline Forum on the Haditha incident. I wasn’t sure if you would see it if I posted it there. To be honest, it spiked a nerve in me to write more than what Michael’s space permits for comments.

I am a retired Navy Commander, having served on frigates, destroyers, and one nuclear cruiser. Although I have never been in land combat, I tracked Soviet submarines, conducted maritime interception operations, came close to shooting down Serbian aircraft over Bosnia, and conducted a Tomahawk launch against Saddam Hussein in the 1990s. I actually retired four days before 9/11.

You bring up an interesting point about Rules of Engagement (ROE) and appropriate use of force, a subject that is rarely brought up in the press and which most civilians have never heard of. In the Navy, we were constantly working under multiple Rules of Engagement depending on what operations we were conducting. Most of these rules were fairly complex in terms of what one could do as a situation escalated. The problem is that one would train under one set, then suddenly be placed in a situation where a new one applied. Sometimes, multiple rules applied at the same time, depending on exactly what one was doing. The opportunity for getting them confused was great. I don’t know if the ground forces in Iraq are presented with a similar problem.

I used one example scenario from one set of ROE that I operated under to illustrate the problem to civilian friends. You are the tactical action officer on USS TICONDEROGA (CG 47) and you are escorting USS NIMITZ (CVN 68) of the coast of Libya. Quadafi sends out a Nanuchka corvette, with its six SS-N-9 cruise missiles. He gets within 30 miles of the two ships and suddenly rifles off all six of them at you. You should down four of them with SM-2s and the NIMITZ shoots down one with her Close In Weapons System, but one of the missiles finds its mark in the carrier’s hangar deck, creating a huge explosion, many casualties, and knocking the carrier out of action. Can you now fire your Harpoons and sink the Nanuchka? The answer is NO…the Nanuchka has expended all of his missiles, and is no longer a threat. The reaction from my friends was amazement that we could not shoot back even with a burning aircraft carrier without getting authorization from National Command Authority.

It was always a balancing game to determine how much “kinetic force”, as you put it, you need to use and when you need to use it. One can choose to be like USS STARK (which absorbed in 1987 two Exocet cruise missiles in the Persian Gulf that she could easily have shot down) or one can choose to be USS VINCENNES (aka “Robo-cruiser”) taking on multiple Iranian gunboats in their territorial waters and then downing a civilian airliner? Comparing the naval equivalent to a land combat engagement, the “STARK” is a situation where you are not aggressive enough on a patrol and your guys get killed, while VINCENNES is the Haditha scenario.

The problem is that, in these situations, split second decisions are required, adrenaline runs high, and there may not be enough time to make an assessment that in retrospect might have resulted in a different decision. Unfortunately, in our “zero defects” military, operational mistakes are rarely forgiven, even for the people with the most illustrious records. I have seen great naval officers relieved for groundings of ships that caused no damage or which they were really powerless to prevent. I am not saying that the marines at Haditha did not follow a path down a slippery slope, but I can understand why they did it. Like the victims of VINCENNES (Iran Air did not want to respond to warnings from the “Great Satan” on International Air Distress), the victims at Haditha probably contributed to the tragedy as well.

The use of “kinetic force” is a tricky thing to balance, as it can have so many side effects. During Operation SHARP GUARD in the Adriatic, I was on USS BAINBRIGE (CGN 25) where we had just finished our first patrol for enforcing the interdiction ops on Serbia and the protection of the DENY FLIGHT airspace from Serbian aircraft. We had been relieved by the Western European Union force headed by a British Commodore embarked on HMS CHATHAM. There was also a French, Dutch, Italian, and Spanish ship, but I don’t remember which ones. We were heading south to Corfu for a port visit and were about 50 miles from CHATHAM, when the screens and communication circuits began lighting up in Combat Information Center (CIC). An oil tanker, the LIDO II, was heading toward the Montenegro (then joined with Serbia) coast and would not answer any queries from the group. Oil imports were forbidden under UN Resolution 757. Then, a group of Serbian corvettes came out of their principal port armed with Styx cruise missiles. Soon the whole wardroom and the embarked staff were in CIC listening to the exchange and watching it on our screens. We turned around and headed north at flank speed.

The British commander was very calm. The only hostile action he took was to blow out the INMARSAT antenna on the Lido II, so that they could not call CNN and create a media fiasco. The Serbian vessels actually sped between the task force ships with fire control radars on and the missile hatches removed. Such an action by most US Rules of Engagement would have passed the threshold for “hostile intent” and entitled them to an American thumping. Instead, the CHATHAM requested assistance from the Italians, who flew in, via armed helo, an Italian commando team to take control of the LIDO II. The special forces took over the ship with no casualties to themselves or the crew. However, they did find armed scuttling charges, and lots of cameras. The Serbians were not trying to get oil into Serbia. They were trying to make a political statement and get publicity.

As it turned out, the British Commodore’s call that “less force is more” was a big risk. He would have had almost no reaction time if those boats had fired their cruise missiles at his group. As far as I know, he had no other intelligence other than his own gut feeling that the Serbians were not going to fire on them. I would have fired Harpoons and SM-2s at the gunboats the second they lit up their fire control 20 miles away. I would also have had the US fast attack sub that was watching the harbor approaches pickle off as many off as they could. I would have had the AWACS buster their F-16s over Bosnia down as quickly as possible. I would have then gone ahead and proceeded with the commando team taking the LIDO II. Call me a whimp, but I could not tolerate endangering the lives of my shipmates any further just to avoid a political or media crisis. Our STANAVFORLANT commander (an American Admiral), who had been told by his seniors that any ship making its way into Montenegro had better have “holes in its side”, said that he would have sunk the gunboats and the LIDO II.

So you have three different choices for the use of “kinetic force”. Two of them would have resulted in headlines reading something like “US NAVY SINKS THIRD WORLD TANKER…YUGOSLAVIAN WARSHIPS SUNK…LOSS OF CIVILIAN LIFE….ECOLOGICAL DISASTER”. As it turned out, the Serbians got no publicity from it. But I still would have pulled the trigger on the gunboats.

A couple of years ago there was a video that received a great deal of air time on the national news programs. I believe that it was taped during one of the major battles to rid Fallujah of insurgents. An embedded photographer taped a marine walking into a room with two wounded bad guys on the right side of the space. The marine looked at one of them, said something like “He is faking” and shot him, before moving on. The immediate reaction by the media talking heads was one of “how brutal our guys are.”

The problem is that the anchors had already reported that this platoon had been in several days of nasty street fighting. They had also indicated that the guy who had fired the shot had one of his best friends killed or wounded just a couple of hours before. One of the comments in the report said that some of the insurgents would feign death before pulling out a weapon or an explosive. Despite these key nuggets of information, the overall flavor of the broadcasts, including Fox, was one of “American forces are committing war crimes on a regular basis” and that an investigation would be forthcoming.

I had a conniption fit. I sent off a note to my two U.S. Senators and the Secretary of Defense. I also spoke with two neighbors, one of whom is a relative of one of the senators and the other a former advisor to the President. My basic tone was “Go ahead and have the investigation and an Article 32, but if this kid goes to a courts-martial, then be prepared to do a lot of explaining to the veterans in this country.” I got back a note from one of the senators that they agreed with me, a few weeks later the other sent word that the investigation concluded the individual in question had acted appropriately.

We expect so much from our young people in this Global War on Terror. In addition to carrying out “shock and awe”, they have to be policemen, diplomats, EMTs, repairmen, lawyers in assessing use of force, and a host of other jobs, while simultaneously not getting themselves killed. They represent the very best values and virtues that we have in this country. Jeff, you have my salute.

Sir,
Thanks for the reply. It was a long read, but well worth it. I had no idea that the ROE could prevent you from sinking a ship that fired upon you just because it was out of ammo. As you might have expected, my first reaction was “I hope the sailors on that Libyan corvette have SGLI, because their families are gonna need it.”

I think I would have pulled the trigger on the Serbian corvettes too. If I understand the situation as you presented it, it appears to be the equivalent of me letting an armed enemy patrol march through the center of my platoon’s defensive position as they point weapons at us with safeties disengaged. However, the commodore’s decision turned out best, but he had no way of knowing that.

Question…did he take out the INMARSAT antenna with kinetic fires? I would think that if I’m going to fire on a foreign ship for any reason that there’s no going back after that. Is that not the case? I think it was Sun Tzu that said “Never do your enemy a small injury.”

Thanks for your sharing your experience.

GG Midnight. I bet it felt pretty good to be victorious.

He took out the INMARSAT antenna with .50 cal machine guns.

The normal procedure when doing visit, board, and search is that if the vessel did not respond to queries or stop, or other attempts to get their attention, the next level of escalation was to fire a shot across the bow with the ship’s main gun. The next level after that is to shoot the .50 cals at the rudder or the screws. The idea is to escalate slowly with a non-combatant ship.

A warship would be a different issue, and Sun Tzu’s quote would be applicable. If you need to shoot at one of them, then be prepared to SHOOT AT THEM!

A tanker, cargo, or passenger vessel is not going to be a threat until the visit, board, search, and seizure(VBSS)team goes aboard. Then the danger begins. If the crew is trying to hide something, they could be waiting in ambush. They could also try to scuttle the vessel.

The Navy has taken casualties in these evolutions. I never lost anyone, but one of the ships that I was on in the early 90s had two members of the boarding party killed when the vessel they boarded was scuttled by its crew in the Persian Gulf several years later. At least the Navy has started giving the boarding teams hazardous duty pay.

Your analogy on letting the enemy march through your defensive position is on the mark for what happened with the LIDO II.

The Nanuchka has always been one of my favorite examples of how constraining Rules of Engagement can be. On that particular deployment, it was a scenario posed by the legal officer on our Battle Group Staff on an evening ROE “fireside chat” on secure voice circuit, where he would quiz ships in turn on the “right answer” to a particular scenario.

When to use force, and the degree to which it is used, is seldom one with a “right answer”. It is a complicated decision involving a lot of rules and a subjective assessment that must take place very quickly. You don’t want to take the first hit, but you also don’t want to strike first and shoot everything in sight. What I object to are the armchair quarterbacks who insist that there must always be a single “right answer” and then point their fingers at the marine in Fallujah whom, in their minds, did not choose correctly. In hindsight, he probably would have made a different decision in shooting the wounded insurgent. But he did not have the advantage of hindsight when he was presented with the problem.

I have been told that in ROE hearings the situation is always approached from the perspective of how it appeared, not how it was in reality. Many don’t always see how complex some decisions are, and how fast they must be made. The armchair quarterbacking seems to be a result of this. I think the best thing I’ve heard our CINC say was “Hindsight is not wisdom.”

Marine Mama,
Try BillRoggio.com - his blog is called the Fourth Rail. He is embedded and reporting from Ramadi/Fallujuah area. You also might try americancitizensoldier.blogspot.com. My personal favorite is kjbattles.blogspot.com who is a Marine artist in Fallujah.

does anyone know about the marines from camp pendleton? i have a brother that is there in iraq and was woundering if anyone knew any news from them? thanks

“does anyone know about the marines from camp pendleton?”

Yeah, there’s a few thousand of us. We’re doing fine. Tell him Jeff says hi.

Imagine your story being told by a soldier from another country invading Utah.. or Arizona..

Abyway.. we’re having problems with all those chuck norris/berlusconi/john wayne hardcore fascist holligans that organize rallys in my town throwing rock at islamic shops and baeting the shit out of women and little boys for being islamic.
“DOWN WITH TERRORISM ! VIVA BERLUSCONI ! VIVA BUSH !” they scream, while wawing italians and american flags and calling this “war for freedom”.
There is a party too called “tank you america”. They thank you for defending freedom and democracy, two words tha I hate because have lost theyr sense.

“Imagine your story being told by a soldier from another country invading Utah.. or Arizona..”

Imagine you’re a shapeshifter without any eyebrows, like Oto from Star Trek Deep Space Nine. Kind of puts it in perspective, huh?

Every conflict has an enemy, and the enemy is sometimes similar to us. They have a mother, a home, and a life of their own. However, we have our mission, and when someone starts planting bombs in the road, financing foreign fighter trafficking, or beheading people then we are going to put them in jail or introduce them to penetrating head trauma, the #1 cause of combat death.

Welcome Home Marine. Very informative blog. Well written. Thank you for your service.

A former Corpsman and Vietnam Vet.

and they said we were baby-killers…you’re just duped.
hope you make a million bucks on your experiences, a new talking head for the right

Merry Christmas to you too , Joe.

thank you for your service young man. this is a great way for us (the folks at home) to get to know what you guys (and gals!) live with on a daily basis. please give all your team mates a hearty “OORAH!”
keep up the good work.

Thats a great story, so scary that its real though. Keep it up lads, hopefully you’ll get pulled out soon. Thanks Very Much for your work