WingColors

I noticed the logo says "Vero Possumus". Is that latin for "I see possums"? Because it is, I'm not voting for that guy.

On the one hand, I like the "kill your opponent at all costs" strategy side of it.

Having heard NUMEROUS of his speeches, I... have not earthly idea what you're talking about. Maybe I missed something?

But regarding the issue at hand, it sort of sounds like a fabricated issue. So what if he used the Presidential Seal as a template? He is, after all, running for President. Frankly, I find it kind of tacky -- I liked his previous logo -- but still don't know what the (big?) deal is.

Now, what I'm really incensed over is this:

The U.S. House of Representatives passed a bill on Friday that could shield phone companies from billions of dollars in lawsuits for their participation in the warrantless surveillance program begun by President George W. Bush after the Sept. 11 attacks.

The White House-backed, compromise measure -- which triggered a firestorm of opposition from civil liberties groups -- would also overhaul U.S. spy powers and replace a temporary surveillance law that expired in February.

When this is voted on by the Senate, exactly one of these two things will happen:

a) Barack Obama will forcefully denounce this and vote against the bill next week.

b) I will vote for Ralph Nader in November. (I've done it before, I'll do it again.)

...Having heard NUMEROUS of his speeches, I... have not earthly idea what you're talking about. Maybe I missed something?...

I like seeing the strategy of things. My reference was how I see Obama increasing the pressure to perform on McCain a little bit more with every opportunity. I was not attributing "kill your opponent at every cost" to anything he said, but rather how I'm interpreting the strategy of what he is doing.

...Frankly, I find it kind of tacky...

That's exactly my point. With everything he has going for him, does he really need to add arguably pompous, arrogant and tacky sideshow elements?

...I will vote for Ralph Nader in November...

It seems more and more I wish there were some way for someone else with a strong chance would enter this campaign too.

The only person with a strong chance who may have entered the race and become a legitimate contender would have been Michael Bloomberg, if for no other reason than he has the deep pockets to support a political campaign, even without donations.

He has the ability to do what he wants, doesn't mean I have to like it.

The seal of the President of the United States is in any form reserved for one person... the President.

To me, no matter what his intention it comes off as cocky. If anything should keep anyone from being cocky it should be the lesson learned from Hillary.

She was anything but the heir to the throne, it was inevitable... and now she's at best a possible VP candidate.

Nothing is inevitable in politics and to display to "image" that you're the President when you're still being interviewed just doesn't float with me.

He loves to put on the facade that he's the "common man's candidate"... he's a snob.

There's not a politician alive that doesn't think you, the voter is an idiot. They'd tell you the sky was green if it would get you to vote for them.

Yes, the logo is ever so sacred. Gabba gabba hey!

... The Republican National Committee didn't pass up a chance to gig Obama over the logo. “Unfortunately for Barack Obama, props won’t seal the deal with the American people," RNC spokesman Danny Diaz said in a statement. "Obama will be judged on his record not oversized, make-believe presidential logos.”

Although the "judged on his record" bit is almost laughable, at least the RNC sees this for what it is: a transparent attempt to appear presidential. Frankly I don't see how this is more blasphemous than the transgressions the current administration has made against human rights and the Constitution. That, to me, is what's worth getting worked up over.

Gnorb, here is Obama's statement on FISA, if you haven't seen it, via kos.

It does, however, grant retroactive immunity, and I will work in the Senate to remove this provision so that we can seek full accountability for past offenses.

Here's the deal though, both the Ramones and Obama are making a statement with the use of a design which mimics the seal.

The Ramones aren't stepping out of bounds of the expected behavior, character or expectations of the fan base of a punk band. Nor are they trying to be the representative of every music niche out there. They're a punk band, they do punkish things.

Obama is also making a statement, which the motive of and the reasoning behind, and the need for, is really unclear. Maybe he thinks it makes him look presidential. I think it makes him look like a kid playing pretend.

We don't really need anymore pretenders in Washington, do we?

...how this is more blasphemous than the transgressions the current administration...

Sigh. He's on his way out, he's doing his farewell tours for crying out loud. However, there's no doubt his ways will live on with some as EVERYTHING our new president does will be measured as "more of the same of...", "much better than..." and "still not as bad as..."

And for the record, my interest in this story is not how the seal is "sacred" or his use of it being "blasphemous", but rather why the man thinks he needs a prop to begin with at this stage of the game.

fuscom: I get what you're saying. My comment on the Ramones logo was more in response to RightOn's comment:

The seal of the President of the United States is in any form reserved for one person... the President.

I'm just ambivalent about it. Is it more or less tasteless than for Bush to wear the seal on his socks (and with CROCS, no less)? I don't know. It just frightens me that there are people out there who make such hay out of things like these (not saying anyone here is, by the by).

The seal of the President of the United States is in any form reserved for one person... the President.

So should I turn in those cards, mugs, and golf balls that sport the presidential seal which (a) I bought when last in Washington DC (Edit: In an airport shop selling everything from Presidential seal mugs and shirts to US constitution toilet paper) and (b) were made in China? Sorry, but the seal's not in any way, shape or form holy, or even exclusive to the office or person of the president.

WIkipedia seems to agree.

The phrase is used both for the physical seal itself (which is kept by the United States Secretary of State)

What do they feed it?

Jensized, we're referring to the Presidential Seal, which is different than the Great Seal of the United States, which you're linking to.

We're also taking the conversation out of context when discussing trinkets with a replica sold to tourists and a heavily influenced design used on the podium of the presumptive democratic nominee for the actual office.

It reeks of egoism, unrealized grandeur, candidates who wont concede, even when her opponent has won, and dare I say..."mission accomplished".

We're all looking for a dignified leader who can steer the US back to its place of respect and leadership in the world. Let's hold off on the seal (or any likeness of it) until it's earned. That would be the dignified leader thing to do.

Exactly, it's one thing to hang it on a keychain and another thing entirely to rework it for your own personal gain... like it was said earlier, it looks like he's playing President.

He's already been on the record talking about "wrapping up his second term" when Chicago could be hosting the Olympics. He's got more ego that John Edwards has hair product.

Arrogance we can believe in!

Is this all the Right really have? A logo that is circular and has an eagle in the middle of it (which is a stunning piece of design by the way)? Is that all you got? Nothing substantive on the issues? Nothing about intelligence, vision, a brain at work?

Obama is going to clean McCain's clock come November if all you can drum up is some faux outrage that his campaign logo (it's a logo not a seal) is "illegal" as some of the right wing blogs are howling.

Yes, logos are illegal but wars, torture, stupidity, lies, blatant criminal acts, etc, etc are all fine.

...but wars, torture, stupidity, lies, blatant criminal acts, etc, etc are all fine.

I know, I know, he's still not as a bad as...

You know, every time a criticism of Obama is compared with a failure of GWB, I think it brings him down a notch. If you want to win the hearts and minds, then compare apparent greatness with demonstrated greatness, not demonstrated failure.

it's a logo, get over it and move on!!

Article19, the GOP will have plenty to throw into the ring once this general election ramps up.

I seem to remember a SOLID WEEK of howling and leg stomping by liberals all over the press, CONGRESS and blogs over Cindy McCain not wanting to release her tax records when SHE isn't running for office.

Both sides have done their fair share of stupid nitpicking.

I'm not "outraged" over Obama's reworking of the seal (I do think it looks well designed) but I do find it to be a little stupid.

Is this all the Right really have? A logo that is circular and has an eagle in the middle of it (which is a stunning piece of design by the way)? Is that all you got? Nothing substantive on the issues? Nothing about intelligence, vision, a brain at work?

I love how any valid criticism of Obama's character is met by his supporters as a distraction from talking about the "real issues" like they haven't spent the last 8 years comparing Bush to a chimp and laughing about how he talks. Suddenly they are all high and mighty now, above such petty things!

At what point did the campaign logo nonsense become about criticizing his character?

@Tjenkins: Yeah, I'm with Article19 on this one. Going back on the whole "Public Funding" thing is one thing. That could be considered an issue. The fact that he has less experience than McCain, that can also be an issue. His rhetoric against Bush's power, then looking to OK granting immunity to telecoms is a BIG issue. "Oh, look at his logo!" is... a flag pin on the lapel of sidetracked media.

At what point did the campaign logo nonsense become about criticizing his character?

It shows a stunning amount of arrogance, a character trait which he has in spades and which will likely turn voters off of him once it's exposed, hence the reason his apostles try to stymie any discussion of his character.

it's a logo, with an eagle on it, how is that arrogance? I suppose what will worry the GOP the most is that he actually has character and a personality and some ideas and can, in fact, speak in complete sentences.

Whereas McCain can barely speak at all without cackling like a hyena but I digress!

Gnorb, I dont think it's an "oh look at his logo!" thing at all. It goes back to what has been stated in this thread several times already, it's a question to his character and a sign of his seemingly increasing public arrogance.

There's a string of arrogant behavior that's appearing, as you yourself acknowledge in your last response, first the public funding, then the new Obama seal, now the immunity to the telecoms deal. Smells like "my way or the highway". If you read how upset a lot of the left are on the telecoms issue, it smells the same to them.

For me, the question of the "logo" is why did he need to do it? He's got a logo, had one from the day he announced his candidacy. My thought is that pure and simple, it was probably a decision by either himself or his handlers that he needed a prop to make him appear more presidential.

Again, why the need for something to prop up his presidential appearance? He has the carisma, the elequeont speeches, the looks, the likability, apparently the right policies. He won the nomination. Hardcore republicans wont vote for him, this side of him wiping out the 9 trillion dollar deficit. The fence sitters are left, and if this move to having a presidential appearing logo is to somehow influence them, then isnt it apparent that he is counting on those unswayed voters to be sheep easily led to the guy who appears to be the sheperd?

Washington is full of wannabe shepherds. I thought this guy was supposed to be different.

We got issue upon issue upon issue for the next US President to inherit, and instead of showing me some backbone to all this change that's coming, I get fluffed up with a new egotistical driven logo.

Bah.

Fuscom, I disagree. In fact, that whole "elitist" tag is standard, first attack from the GOP to Democratic Presidential nominees.

Gore: "Elitist! He uses multi-syllabic words!"

Kerry. "Elitist! He's a rich guy from Massachusetts!"

Obama, "Elitist, he's... Got a logo, and, err... Hubris! Hubris! He's so young, why does he think he can run the country1"

That's why I don't buy the "Elitist" tag.

As for having an ego, realize that ANYONE running for President has an ego, and they're pretty much by definition elitists. Think about it: these are people saying "I'm the best person to run the most powerful nation in all of history." Doesn't matter who it is, that REEKS of ego, hence the saying "Anyone seeking the office shouldn't have it and anyone who should doesn't want it."

And that whole "My way or the highway" mentality you talk about is utter BS. He hasn't displayed that up to now in any position he's held, (nor has McCain), and that's really about the only indication we can get of what type of President he'll be. His talk is all about how Lincoln had advisors from the entire political spectrum and he'd do the same. That's not the talk you'd get from a "my way or the highway" person. (Then again, every presidential wannabe's talked about "reaching across the isle" to the other party, so talk is cheap. Still, he and McCain are the first candidates in a very long I actually believe when they say that.)

So he's using a modified Presidential seal when running for the office of the Presidency. Seriously, I utterly fail to see the issue with that. Yes, he had a pretty good logo before. So what? Campaigns evolve and change according to their perceived need and desired direction. Hell, the Republicans call themselves the "Grand Old Party". That could sound pretty elitist and hubristic. After all, the Dems have been around MUCH longer, in one form or another. Shouldn't THEY be the "Grand Old Party"?

Sorry, but this whole thing is trying to make a tag stick in the minds of people who already don't like the guy, and who'll pass on the message to people who may be on the fence. It's an attack, plain and simple, one with scant substance AT BEST. When you are inclined to think one way, then you likely won't put up much resistance when someone tells you something you'd generally agree with. When you are inclined to think the opposite way, you tend to scrutinize the validity of the statement much more closely. That's just human nature, and it's what the "right" is using in order to bruise Obama's image (because they can't publicly use "terrorist" and "Obama/Osama"). The "left" isn't innocent of this either, attempting to make McCain into Bush's third term (completely ignoring the fact that the tax cuts he wants to make permanent would come with a tighter reign on fiscal responsibility, instead of a messed up version of supply-side economics).

Again, the logo issue is a non-issue, though it may be the only way the GOP can tarnish his "squeaky clean, everyone's governmental panacea" image, which is why it's coming up.

Again, the logo issue is a non-issue, though it may be the only way the GOP can tarnish his "squeaky clean, everyone's governmental panacea" image, which is why it's coming up.

Believe me, Mr. Empty Suit provides plenty of ammo for the GOP, this is just a salvo in a larger battle.

Why are you wasting your time? That's like shooting someone with a B.B. gun and when you're shocked to see them survive saying "that's okay, I'm just getting started!" But the next time comes around and it's just the same damn thing.

I'm an Obama supporter and frankly even I'm getting tired of none of his big opposer crowd addressing the problems with him. His "distractions" argument goes both ways; you're distracting yourself with the fickle, senseless issues you're creating, from the big issues you claim he has.

I just want some meat with my potatoes...because my other choice, unless I choose to just sit this one out, is this idiot...

This logo deal is the only thing I've seen changed so far from the candidate of change. Kind of a let down. Someone call me when he does something of substance. I'll listen to whatever arguments in his favor you might have. Hopefully any comparison to GWB will be left out it though, and he can be presented on his credentials only.

Elitism's got nothing to do with it. However all these so called changes that will effect me, my income and my children's future have everything to do with it, at least from where I sit.

On one hand I am with the it's a logo get over it. I think it's rather stupid to get all worked up about it with the issues we have before us.He should never have let those Clinton people start working for his campaign,,,,

I'm totally with Gnorb. I am incensed about the FISA bill and his response to it. Whether he was sandbagged. as some suggest. or playing to the right to seem harder on terror. his statement was not good enough for me at this time.

The Republicans call anyone who uses words they like to pretend not to understand an elitist - believe me they understand them and laugh behind the backs of those they fool.

I'll take president who routinely uses the word ""arugula over one who routinely uses the word "cunt" any day.

I'm an Obama supporter and frankly even I'm getting tired of none of his big opposer crowd addressing the problems with him. His "distractions" argument goes both ways; you're distracting yourself with the fickle, senseless issues you're creating, from the big issues you claim he has.

You fail to see that all these "fickle, senseless" issues form a larger picture of a weak candidate that reads a little too much into his press clippings. I mean I could go on about his glaring lack of experience in anything, his laughable claims of being bipartisan when his meager record shows nothing of the sort...but what's the fun in that? McCain can handle all the meat when he eats him alive during debates (that's if Obama ever agrees to have one that isn't scripted in front of a Obama friendly MSM news anchor). I'll stick to pointing out the little things, mostly because it sends his apostles, like you, into this infantile "STOP PICKING ON OBAMA!" crying jag, which I find immensely entertaining.

Wow. I can't even begin to say how ridiculous that little jab at me was.

I practically said the opposite - I'm waiting for you to actually say something substantial. You continue to dance around it. Whenever people like you are called on the uselesness of everything you say you just go "psh, it's not worth my time" and ignore it. Not only does that sound completely arrogant/elitist/snobby (pick the word you guys love the best, I'm curious; note it at the bottom of your reply), but it contributes nothing and changes nothing.

If asking for valid arguments makes me an apostle, well damn, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. :)

Gah! Fusecom! Your internets video thingy broke the page!

Can we get back to DISCUSSION and drop the personal jabs? THANK YOU

*Fixed the page - let me know if anyone else has a problem viewing the page*

Well, looks like the seal's been thrown under the bus with all the other "distractions":

And Mickey Kaus predicted it would be disappeared over the weekend. His exact words were: "But unless David Axelrod is insane, the thing will never be seen again." Kaus was right. While we don't have full details, someone at Obama's press center, when asked if the seal would be used going forward said simply, "No."

Well I think that only proves that he's flexible to avoid any bad press?

Well I think that only proves that he's flexible to avoid any bad press?

yeah, it doesn't show bad judegment, no sir, not at all.

I said earlier that it wasn't a bright idea in the first place but I don't think it's the worst thing he's done or supported.

I thought it was amateurish and ridiculous, but then again... a LOT of political pundits and politicians say and do stupid stuff.

Lou Dobbs seems to think President Bush should be impeached over Tomatoes with Salmonella in them. OMG, front page news for a week!

I didn't even feel the seal thing was even worthy of a blog post... it's just not news worthy.

While this may not be worthy of a blog post, as more and more of these "not bright ideas" and "amateurish and ridiculous" episodes pop up it paints a larger picture so that by summer and fall we'll have not only Obama's stunning inexperience to drill into peoples skulls, but also his flip-flopiness, mismanagement, bad judgment and all around arrogance to run ads about as well. big picture people, big picture.